texascavers Digest 10 Dec 2010 19:25:33 -0000 Issue 1208
Topics (messages 16689 through 16693):
Re: Rattlesnake Cave, Oklahoma, and True Grit
16689 by: John Brooks
Re: El Malpais
16690 by: Rod Goke
16691 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
16692 by: Fofo
16693 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
There is a fairly long cave on Winding Stair mountain called Bear Den Cave. It
has several entrances. And seems like I have heard past stories about a body
recovery from the cave in the past. The cave has close to a 1000 feet of
passage...although I am not sure it has been mapped. Seems like there is an old
survey of it done by Joe Looney. It might be the same cave. Or I suppose it is
quite likely that there are other caves in the area.
The rock is some type of sandstone. And Bear Den is formed along a fault that
runs north/south across the mountain.
There is significant air movement through the cave and there is a nice blowing
lead at the back. A group from DFWG did a couple of dig trips to follow the air
in the early 80s....and opened up some more passage. But ran into another
constriction with airflow. We suspected that there was likely another
entrance....but never found it.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2010, at 9:39 AM, cavera...@aol.com wrote:
A journalist and historian friend in Florida (who was with a TV station in Fort
Smith for a number of years) has brought to my attention a little mystery about
an Oklahoma cave and a major motion picture. Maybe some North Texas cavers
know the cave (or crevice or whatever; I don't think there is much in the way
of true solutional caves in the Ouachita Mountains, of which I believe the
Winding Stairs to be a part).
Roger Moore
GHG
Roger, The publicity about the True Grit remake brought to mind a little
mystery
that might be of interest to you and your caver friends. Its a little known
fact
that the "Rattlesnake Cave" in the movie was actually based on a real
"Rattlesnake Cave" somewhere in the Winding Stair Mountain area of eastern
Oklahoma. A real-life Deputy U.S. Marshal went down into the cave to retrieve
the body of a murder victim and found himself in a nest of rattlesnakes. The
cave was well known in the late 1800s, but its location has been lost to modern
historians. Any thoughts on it? (Oh, and if you want to read a little about
the "real" Rooster Cogburn, you might enjoy this:
www.exploresouthernhistory.com/roostercogburn).
There is a scene near the end in which the young girl who hires the deputy
marshal is put down into a cave by the outlaws and finds herself surrounded by
snakes. The incident in the book and movie was based on a real life incident in
the 1880s when a woman was thrown into "Rattlesnake Cave" somewhere in the
Winding Stair area of the Ouachitas. The outlaws responsible were apprehended,
but in order to prove the case against them, the Deputy Marshals out of Fort
Smith had to retrieve the remains of the victim. One of the officers was
lowered on a rope into the cave, which was described as a "crevice" and as he
was collecting the bones and other evidence realized he was surrounded by
rattlesnakes. He opened fire on them and emptied his pistols, yelling at the
same time for the other lawmen to pull him up. When he came up out of the cave,
he had one snake around his neck and another around his arm which so frightened
the men pulling him up that they almost
dropped him back down the hole.
It is quite a story and apparently is true. All that is known today about the
location of the cave is that it is in the Winding Stair area south of Fort
Smith. It would be interesting to find.
Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious
effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to
prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more
than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't
they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an "experimental
group" with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a
"control group" with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually
study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on
the spread of WNS.
Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this
to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research
techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective
in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the
prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial "show cave" operations are
allowed to carry on business as usual?
Rod
L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-)
5105 Dusty Trail Cove
Austin, Texas 78749
(512) 892-4186
rod.g...@ieee.org
-----Original Message-----
>From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM
>To: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
>Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>
>Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun?
>Seriously,
>the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That
>way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE
>proactive measures.
>best,
> Andy
>
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
>700 Billie Brooks Drive
>Driftwood, Texas 78619
>(512) 799-1095
>a...@gluesenkamp.com
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
>To: Andy Gluesenkamp <a...@gluesenkamp.com>
>Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>
>
>Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are
>closed?
>Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand
>picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk "close the caves" reaction smells a
>little too much like the "nobody should go caving except us" syndrome that I
>have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously
>right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not
>matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will
>complete
>it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like
>DNA
>preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the "putting
>out
>fires" approach we are seeing now?
>
>--- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>>To: "Mixon Bill" <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>, "Cavers Texas"
>><texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM
>>
>>
>>Bill,
>> Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps
>>to
>>study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and
>>other
>>surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats.
>>Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies.
>>Stating that "nothing can be done" is giving up to soon. You may be correct
>>that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave
>>closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well
>>as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide
>>information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is
>>valuable,
>>especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon
>>like WNS.
>>
>> I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria.
>>
>>Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the
>>Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the
>>collection before it was turned to ashes?
>>
>>Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
>>700 Billie Brooks Drive
>>Driftwood, Texas 78619
>>(512) 799-1095
>>a...@gluesenkamp.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>________________________________
>From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
>>To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM
>>Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>>
>>No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of
>>bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's
>>no
>>real justification for it.
>>
>>My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things
>>play
>>out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the
>>nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon
>>----------------------------------------
>>All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast.
>>----------------------------------------
>>You may "reply" to the address this message
>>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>>Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
>>AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a
closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few.
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com
________________________________
From: Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
To: Andy Gluesenkamp <a...@gluesenkamp.com>
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious
effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to
prevent
WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than
speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they
randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an "experimental
group" with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a
"control group" with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually
study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on
the
spread of WNS.
Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this
to
study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research
techniques
are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in
combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the
prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial "show cave" operations are
allowed to carry on business as usual?
Rod
L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-)
5105 Dusty Trail Cove
Austin, Texas 78749
(512) 892-4186
rod.g...@ieee.org
-----Original Message-----
>From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM
>To: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
>Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>
>Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun?
>Seriously,
>
>the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That
>way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE
>proactive measures.
>best,
> Andy
>
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
>700 Billie Brooks Drive
>Driftwood, Texas 78619
>(512) 799-1095
>a...@gluesenkamp.com
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
>To: Andy Gluesenkamp <a...@gluesenkamp.com>
>Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>
>
>Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are
>closed?
>
>Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand
>picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk "close the caves" reaction smells a
>little too much like the "nobody should go caving except us" syndrome that I
>have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously
>right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not
>matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will
>complete
>
>it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like
>DNA
>
>preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the "putting
>out
>fires" approach we are seeing now?
>
>--- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>>To: "Mixon Bill" <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>, "Cavers Texas"
>><texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM
>>
>>
>>Bill,
>> Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps
>>to
>
>>study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological and
>>other
>
>>surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied by bats.
>>Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies.
>>Stating that "nothing can be done" is giving up to soon. You may be correct
>>that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or without cave
>>closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well
>>as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide
>>information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is
>>valuable,
>>
>>especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic phenomenon
>>like WNS.
>>
>> I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria.
>>
>>Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar and the
>>Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the
>>collection before it was turned to ashes?
>>
>>Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
>>700 Billie Brooks Drive
>>Driftwood, Texas 78619
>>(512) 799-1095
>>a...@gluesenkamp.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>________________________________
>From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
>>To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM
>>Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>>
>>No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but rather of
>>bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if there's
>>no
>>real justification for it.
>>
>>My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let things
>>play
>>
>>out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear on the
>>nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon
>>----------------------------------------
>>All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast.
>>----------------------------------------
>>You may "reply" to the address this message
>>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>>Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
>>AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Andy.
I don't think that it's this particular closure that's bothersome, but
it's more about the trend that it shows. The Forest Service is
recommending closing access to caves in their lands, in California, Lava
Beds National Monument is rewriting its general plan and considering
excluding caving (and there's pretty much nothing else to do there other
than go into lava tubes).
In the eastern US there are more caves in private lands than public
lands, but in the western US is the other way around, so things like
this would have a big impact in caving.
And of course, the reaction is more "Oh, man, I won't be able to go
caving and I really like caving!" but I agree that they are just blanket
measures, extreme measures, so that the agencies err on the side of
caution. If a cave in a specific park gets WNS, then the park manager
will have to answer why he didn't do more, so restricting all access
brings him some safety. Not that I support this, but I guess that's why
it's being done.
- Fofo
Andy Gluesenkamp wrote, on 10/12/10 10:48 :
Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by
a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few.
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
*To:* Andy Gluesenkamp <a...@gluesenkamp.com>
*Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com
*Sent:* Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a
serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves
helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of
little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread
WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where
one is an "experimental group" with caves closed to recreational caving
and where the other is a "control group" with caves remaining open as
usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a
statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS.
Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing
this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other
research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave
closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results
are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while
commercial "show cave" operations are allowed to carry on business as
usual?
Rod
L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-)
5105 Dusty Trail Cove
Austin, Texas 78749
(512) 892-4186
rod.g...@ieee.org <mailto:rod.g...@ieee.org>
-----Original Message-----
>From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com
<mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>>
>Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM
>To: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
<mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>>
>Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>
>Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun?
Seriously,
>the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is
there. That
>way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be.
These ARE
>proactive measures.
>best,
> Andy
>
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
>700 Billie Brooks Drive
>Driftwood, Texas 78619
>(512) 799-1095
>a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
<mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>>
>To: Andy Gluesenkamp <a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com>>
>Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>
>
>Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves
are closed?
>Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few
hand
>picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk "close the caves" reaction
smells a
>little too much like the "nobody should go caving except us" syndrome
that I
>have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is
obviously
>right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It
will not
>matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS
will complete
>it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive
measures, like DNA
>preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the
"putting out
>fires" approach we are seeing now?
>
>--- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com
<mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com
<mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>>
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>>To: "Mixon Bill" <bmixon...@austin.rr.com
<mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com>>, "Cavers Texas"
>><texascavers@texascavers.com <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
>>Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM
>>
>>
>>Bill,
>> Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking
steps to
>>study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological
and other
>>surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied
by bats.
>>Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies.
>>Stating that "nothing can be done" is giving up to soon. You may be
correct
>>that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or
without cave
>>closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well
>>as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide
>>information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is
valuable,
>>especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic
phenomenon
>>like WNS.
>>
>> I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of
Alexandria.
>>Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar
and the
>>Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the
>>collection before it was turned to ashes?
>>
>>Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
>>700 Billie Brooks Drive
>>Driftwood, Texas 78619
>>(512) 799-1095
>>a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>________________________________
>From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com
<mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com>>
>>To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com
<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
>>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM
>>Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>>
>>No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but
rather of
>>bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if
there's no
>>real justification for it.
>>
>>My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let
things play
>>out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear
on the
>>nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon
>>----------------------------------------
>>All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast.
>>----------------------------------------
>>You may "reply" to the address this message
>>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>>Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu <mailto:bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu>
>>AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:edi...@amcs-pubs.org> or
sa...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:sa...@amcs-pubs.org>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com <http://texascavers.com/>
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
<mailto:texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>
>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
<mailto:texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>
>>
>>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, Fofo. Better to err on the side of caution than to have the phrase
"Do-Nothing Dumbass" carved in your headstone. We can bitch about closures all
we want but closures are not necessarily permanent, extinction is. If niche
modeling and other studies show that Western states have nothing to worry
about,
then temporary closures will have been a small cost to have paid. As a caver,
I
am not in favor of losing acess to caves but, as a biologist, I am willing
to put my personal preferences on the back burner until we have a better idea
of
what we are dealing with.
Ciao,
Andy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com
________________________________
From: Fofo <gonza...@msu.edu>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:06:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
Hi Andy.
I don't think that it's this particular closure that's bothersome, but it's
more
about the trend that it shows. The Forest Service is recommending closing
access
to caves in their lands, in California, Lava Beds National Monument is
rewriting
its general plan and considering excluding caving (and there's pretty much
nothing else to do there other than go into lava tubes).
In the eastern US there are more caves in private lands than public lands, but
in the western US is the other way around, so things like this would have a big
impact in caving.
And of course, the reaction is more "Oh, man, I won't be able to go caving and
I
really like caving!" but I agree that they are just blanket measures, extreme
measures, so that the agencies err on the side of caution. If a cave in a
specific park gets WNS, then the park manager will have to answer why he didn't
do more, so restricting all access brings him some safety. Not that I support
this, but I guess that's why it's being done.
- Fofo
Andy Gluesenkamp wrote, on 10/12/10 10:48 :
> Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by
> a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few.
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
> 700 Billie Brooks Drive
> Driftwood, Texas 78619
> (512) 799-1095
> a...@gluesenkamp.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
> *To:* Andy Gluesenkamp <a...@gluesenkamp.com>
> *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Sent:* Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
>
> If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a
> serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves
> helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of
> little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread
> WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where
> one is an "experimental group" with caves closed to recreational caving
> and where the other is a "control group" with caves remaining open as
> usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a
> statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS.
>
> Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing
> this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other
> research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave
> closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results
> are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while
> commercial "show cave" operations are allowed to carry on business as
> usual?
>
> Rod
>
> L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-)
> 5105 Dusty Trail Cove
> Austin, Texas 78749
> (512) 892-4186
> rod.g...@ieee.org <mailto:rod.g...@ieee.org>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>>
> >Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM
> >To: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>>
> >Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
> >
> >Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun?
> Seriously,
> >the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is
> there. That
> >way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be.
> These ARE
> >proactive measures.
> >best,
> > Andy
> >
> > Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
> >700 Billie Brooks Drive
> >Driftwood, Texas 78619
> >(512) 799-1095
> >a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>>
> >To: Andy Gluesenkamp <a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com>>
> >Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>
> >Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
> >
> >
> >Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves
> are closed?
> >Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few
> hand
> >picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk "close the caves" reaction
> smells a
> >little too much like the "nobody should go caving except us" syndrome
> that I
> >have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is
> obviously
> >right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It
> will not
> >matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS
> will complete
> >it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive
> measures, like DNA
> >preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the
> "putting out
> >fires" approach we are seeing now?
> >
> >--- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: Andy Gluesenkamp <andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>>
> >>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais
> >>To: "Mixon Bill" <bmixon...@austin.rr.com
> <mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com>>, "Cavers Texas"
> >><texascavers@texascavers.com <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
> >>Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>Bill,
> >> Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking
> steps to
> >>study the situation carefully. The NPS is conducting microbiological
> and other
> >>surveys of caves in the area, including those that are not occupied
> by bats.
> >>Simply stated: human entry into caves may complicate these studies.
> >>Stating that "nothing can be done" is giving up to soon. You may be
> correct
> >>that nothing can be done to prevent the spread of WNS, with or
> without cave
> >>closures. However, documenting bat populations and cave use as well
> >>as conducting microbiological and other surveys will at least provide
> >>information about what we may lose (have lost). This documentation is
> valuable,
> >>especially if we are facing the inevitable spread of a catastophic
> phenomenon
> >>like WNS.
> >>
> >> I view this as analogous to the burning of the Great Library of
> Alexandria.
> >>Sure, the fire may have been unavoidable (try stopping Julius Ceasar
> and the
> >>Roman army) but don't you wish that someone had at least catalogued the
> >>collection before it was turned to ashes?
> >>
> >>Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
> >>700 Billie Brooks Drive
> >>Driftwood, Texas 78619
> >>(512) 799-1095
> >>a...@gluesenkamp.com <mailto:a...@gluesenkamp.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >________________________________
> >From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com
> <mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com>>
> >>To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com
> <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>
> >>Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:03:32 PM
> >>Subject: [Texascavers] El Malpais
> >>
> >>No, closing those caves isn't a symptom of greedy biologists, but
> rather of
> >>bureaucrats who think they have to be seen doing something, even if
> there's no
> >>real justification for it.
> >>
> >>My solution would be to recognize there's nothing to be done and let
> things play
> >>out, as they will anyway. A whole lot cheaper and less wear and tear
> on the
> >>nervous systems, even of bat buffs. -- Mixon
> >>----------------------------------------
> >>All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast.
> >>----------------------------------------
> >>You may "reply" to the address this message
> >>came from, but for long-term use, save:
> >>Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu <mailto:bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu>
> >>AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:edi...@amcs-pubs.org> or
> sa...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:sa...@amcs-pubs.org>
> >>
> >>
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