texascavers Digest 20 Oct 2010 18:36:34 -0000 Issue 1174
Topics (messages 16374 through 16384):
Re: Texas Cavers Reunion "Dust Bowl" 2010
16374 by: J. LaRue Thomas
16376 by: Linda Palit
16383 by: Fritz Holt
TCR, not playing by the rules
16375 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
16377 by: Linda Palit
16379 by: Gill Edigar
TCR Registration 2010
16378 by: Gill Edigar
Texas Cavers Reunion
16380 by: Diana Tomchick
16381 by: Stefan Creaser
16384 by: caverarch.aol.com
UIS Anthem Competition
16382 by: George Veni
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--- Begin Message ---
Rather than assume nefarious cheapskate-ism, remember that when we held TCRs
on private land (no "use fee") the main/only thing the registration fee paid
for was the food. People who were not there for the Saturday dinner or did
not want to eat the dinner didn't need to pay. (If this was not the policy
this certainly was the misperception).
Reminding folks that "That was then and this is now and things are
different" may very well take care of most of this issue. Jacqui
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most people pay.
That is a good thing, since we pay for them whether they pay or not.
It would take a lot of volunteers to have people pay at every station and a
lot of money would have to be carried around all the time.
Nice to hear all the different ideas, but things work pretty well and most
people are pretty honest, or I like to believe that about cavers.
Things evolve as access to land and sites evolves.
And it is always such a treat to see so many people.
From: SS [mailto:back2scool...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:24 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion "Dust Bowl" 2010
How do you know they just didn't wear their wrist band. I didn't don mine
until suppertime.. I can imagine there are some who just forgot or just
plain did not put their wrist bands on at all.
If this is a problem the most surefire way to safeguard against this in the
future would be to charge for dinner at the dinner table, charge for entry
into caver camp at the entry to the Caver Camp, Charge for beer at the beer
table (or sell a wrist band for beer at the beer table and no refills w/o a
wrist band.)
This way you get the money for everyone for everything without insulting
anyone. Event 101.
_____
From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 4:52 PM
To: Ron Miller
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion "Dust Bowl" 2010
But the biggest cost is *not* the *food*.
Logistically having two organisations collecting fees *is* a nightmare, and
the fee the park would charge is unlikely the be the same as TCR charges for
the same. I'm not in the least bit involved with the organisation of TCR
(other than the food) but I could easily assume that TCR pays a flat fee to
the landowner which is then amortised over the TCR attendees to keep the
cost *down*; by extension the fee to not eat the Saturday meal at TCR could
be higher than eating it!
Stefan
From: Ron Miller [mailto:rons...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 4:03 PM
To: Carol Belski; Gill Edigar
Cc: Allan Cobb; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion "Dust Bowl" 2010
I have heard some folks comment that they do not want to pay for food at the
event. Probably why they choose not to pay at all. I would say to let the
park office collect an entrance fee per family before you can enter. Then
have TCR collect an event fee in camp minus the facilities costs.
Ron
_____
From: Carol Belski <bels...@valornet.com>
To: Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net>
Cc: Allan Cobb <a...@oztotl.com>; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 2:31:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion "Dust Bowl" 2010
Maybe a different "registration fee" for those who can't/don't want to eat
the provided fare: charge a " camping only" fee (flat fee per family). I
suspect this would be a bo! okkeeping nightmare, but some logistics genius
could figure it out, and TCR would reap a few more pennies to cover the
costs. ..... just a thought.
Carol
On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:25 PM, Gill Edigar wrote:
> If one had walked around the campground as supper was being served
> probably another 50 or 60 or so without wrist bands would have been
> found eating supper at their own camp. They hadn't registered. TCR had
> to pay their use fee but didn't collect any registration fee to cover
> it. Try to discourage anyone scamming TCR in the future if you know
> about um.
> --Ediger
>
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Allan Cobb <a...@oztotl.com> wrote:
>> The registration count was indeed 381 people.
>>
>> Allan
>
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--- Begin Message ---
OK, charge each individual entering the event a fee based on the cost for
leasing the premises and the portapotties (even if they prefer to go in the
woods). Charge separately for food and drink. I'm sure this is
oversimplification as there are other costs involved that must be shared. Or,
charge a fee for all costs except food and pay for that when you eat. The
problem would be knowing how many would be partaking of the feast. I'm sure the
board or organizers can come up with a satisfactory solution.
Geezer, and fortunate to be.
________________________________
From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:16 PM
To: Carol Belski
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion "Dust Bowl" 2010
So far, Carol Belski has been the only one on this list to make a suggestion
that doesn't involve villianizing those that don't want to pay for the food and
beer part of TCR. All other responses have basically been a police type
response that isn't needed or probably wanted at events like TCR. Some people
do want to attend TCR and cannot afford the full price, contrary to what some
others might think. In the long ago past, when TCR was still called Texas Old
Timers Reunion (the original name) people had an option to not have to pay for
food they weren't going to eat. Some people don't want to stand in line for
long periods of time, or do not drink the beer that is provided. There should
be an option for those that want to attend but not partake of those activities.
At events like these, you will always have a few who do not register for some
reason. You may not like that, but it is a fact of any large event like TCR has
become. I personally think there is a better approach than turning yourself
into an impromptu cop, or harboring bad feelings about those that do not
conduct themselves the same way you do. Where is your sense of caver comraderie
or cohesion when you are ready to victimize fellow cavers who don't act the way
you think they should? Maybe some of us should leave our better than thou
attitudes behind when we attend these functions, and just let bygones be
bygones.
--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Carol Belski <bels...@valornet.com> wrote:
From: Carol Belski <bels...@valornet.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion "Dust Bowl" 2010
To: "Gill Edigar" <gi...@att.net>
Cc: "Allan Cobb" <a...@oztotl.com>, texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 2:31 PM
Maybe a different "registration fee" for those who can't/don't want to eat the
provided fare: charge a " camping only" fee (flat fee per family). I suspect
this would be a bookkeeping nightmare, but some logistics genius could figure
it out, and TCR would reap a few more pennies to cover the costs. ..... just
a thought.
Carol
On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:25 PM, Gill Edigar wrote:
> If one had walked around the campground as supper was being served
> probably another 50 or 60 or so without wrist bands would have been
> found eating supper at their own camp. They hadn't registered. TCR had
> to pay their use fee but didn't collect any registration fee to cover
> it. Try to discourage anyone scamming TCR in the future if you know
> about um.
> --Ediger
>
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Allan Cobb
> <a...@oztotl.com<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=a...@oztotl.com>>
> wrote:
>> The registration count was indeed 381 people.
>>
>> Allan
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First a disclaimer, I was not there. Nor would I have been if wristbands
were required. I won't go into a bar where wristbands are required much less
a caver gathering.
Nor was I at the real Old Timers this year, but I do have a lot of
experience in regard to such events which are invariably run by control freaks
who
get all sanctimonious over their investment of time and energy and cannot
tolerate the thought that someone somewhere is not "playing by the rules".
Thus one is required to wear a badge at all times, etc.
There is only one reason to play by the rules, not because they are the
rules for which I certainly don't give a damn, but because we, both as
individuals and as a community, support whatever it is that is happening. If we
have common cause it simply doesn't matter whether or not someone sneaks in
without paying, gets a free beer, or whatever.
I don't know how uptight the situation was at the TCR, but for your sakes I
hope it never gets as bad as at the OTR where the gate Nazis are actual
CIA, NSA, military spooks, or at TAG where we are forced to pay off the local
pigs to provide "security" for an event that needs no security whatsoever.
These events are held on private property, as they should be, so anyone
who is unduly unruly can simply be asked or forced to leave.
Sleaze
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hope it was REAL.
I consider our event real too, and I had a lot of fun.
From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] TCR, not playing by the rules
First a disclaimer, I was not there. Nor would I have been if wristbands
were required. I won't go into a bar where wristbands are required much less
a caver gathering.
Nor was I at the real Old Timers this year, but I do have a lot of
experience in regard to such events which are invariably run by control
freaks who get all sanctimonious over their investment of time and energy
and cannot tolerate the thought that someone somewhere is not "playing by
the rules". Thus one is required to wear a badge at all times, etc.
There is only one reason to play by the rules, not because they are the
rules for which I certainly don't give a damn, but because we, both as
individuals and as a community, support whatever it is that is happening. If
we have common cause it simply doesn't matter whether or not someone sneaks
in without paying, gets a free beer, or whatever.
I don't know how uptight the situation was at the TCR, but for your sakes I
hope it never gets as bad as at the OTR where the gate Nazis are actual CIA,
NSA, military spooks, or at TAG where we are forced to pay off the local
pigs to provide "security" for an event that needs no security whatsoever.
These events are held on private property, as they should be, so anyone who
is unduly unruly can simply be asked or forced to leave.
Sleaze
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Again, the one thing we can identify that is worse than free-loaders
are control freaks. It has long been the practice at TCR to avoid
anything that resembles control. It's a party and people are expected
to have a good time free of rules and hassles. Wrist bands serve
mostly to identify those who've paid for supper--not as any other sort
of manacle. One could perfectly well just show up with one in hand at
mealtime. Not wearing a wristband could certainly raise a flag for
Registration personnel should they wish to interrupt their time and
solitude with worrying about who has paid and who hasn't. In any case,
at TCR registration has traditionally relied on personal
initiative--on the parts of both the attendees and those running
Registration.
--Ediger
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 8:36 AM, <bmorgan...@aol.com> wrote:
> First a disclaimer, I was not there. Nor would I have been if wristbands
> were required. I won't go into a bar where wristbands are required much less
> a caver gathering.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The TCR organizers have never been overly anal about running
Registration in such a manner that would preclude determined scammers
from sneaking around it. Registration is pretty much voluntary--not so
much by design as by default. Those who don't register can easily be
identified and intimidated by sending a couple of burly guys around
the campground with a Registration Book during The Big Feed and
checking out those hanging out at camp. Most will not have wristbands
on--because they didn't register. At that time their money can be
collected or they can be invited to leave. (This has been done on a
couple of occasions.) Does anybody want to volunteer to be a
Registration Cop? There have almost always been land use fees for the
TCR site, whether flat-rate or per-head. Sometimes free-loaders cost
TCR money and sometimes they didn't. For the most part, peer pressure
is the preferred method of enforcing registration--and other
guidelines at TCR. If you know of people who didn't register,
encourage them to do so. TCR is a private party which is dedicated to
supporting caving in Texas, which includes TSA and other caving
organizations and projects as the need arises. Those who don't
register are only hurting the cause of Texas caving.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all who helped with the event, including Roger Moore, who picked up
the Shiner beer that was donated for this year's TCR. Shiner Beer, the Beer of
Texas Cavers!
I like the sound of that.
Now no one needs to feel guilty about not paying for the event beer.
I particularly enjoyed the chance to go for a short mountain bike "ride" on one
of the "Level 4" 4x4 roads on the property. I say "ride" as it was such a steep
route I was pushing the bike as often as I was riding it. I now know that the
wheelbase on my large Tundra is too long for those routes. Our dogs enjoy going
for bike rides with us, and while trying to get a drink of water, they managed
to find the muddiest spot on the property in a creekbed, so they earned a bath
when they got home.
I missed seeing David Locklear show up for the event--I expected to see him
right before/after Saturday night's dinner, but I don't know if he ever made it.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't see him either, I don't think he made it.
We normally see him arrive super-late at the 'kitchen'.
Stefan
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu]
I missed seeing David Locklear show up for the event--I expected to see him
right before/after Saturday night's dinner, but I don't know if he ever made it.
Diana
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confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David set out to go but fate or something like that intervened and it was not
to be. But he was able to visit a vineyard route
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser <stefan.crea...@arm.com>
To: Cave Tex <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 10:37 am
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Texas Cavers Reunion
I didn't see him either, I don't think he made it.
We normally see him arrive super-late at the 'kitchen'.
Stefan
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu]
I missed seeing David Locklear show up for the event--I expected to see him
right before/after Saturday night's dinner, but I don't know if he ever made it.
Diana
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
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--- Begin Message ---
Dear Friends,
If you were at the International Congress of Speleology last year, you may
remember that it began by the first raising of the UIS' (International Union
of Speleology) flag. Everyone was pleased to see the flag, but something was
missing. It was very quiet. When a flag is raised, it is usually raised with
music. Below is information from Ian Chandler who is organizing a
competition to create an anthem for the UIS.
I am sending this message to a couple of caver e-mail lists, plus several
cavers around the world who are musically talented or who may know musically
talented people. Please feel free to distribute this message to other people
you think may be interested in writing an anthem for the UIS.
Please send any questions and entries to Ian Chandler (see below).
George
-----------------------------
UIS Anthem
Conditions of competition
1. Entries to be between 60 to 90 seconds in length
2. All entries must be provided digitally to the UIS Bureau through the
UIS Arts and Letters Commission (Ian Ellis Chandler).
3. Entries to be received by Arts and Letters Commission by end
January, 2012. They will be considered by the Bureau summer meeting 2012.
The Bureau retains the option not to select any entry as suitable.
4. The digital entry will not include lyrics. Lyrics can be attached,
and a digital audio version can be presented. Lyrics can be in any of the
following languages of the UIS: English, French, German, Italian, Russian or
Spanish.
5. Entries must be original and not based on any existing music.
6. Entries should be universal and not in a style generally associated
with any country.
7. The style should capable of appealing for many years and not based
on any particular modern style.
8. Entries should try to capture the spirit of speleology.
The winning entry (if one is selected) will be revealed at the Opening
Ceremony of the 2013 ICS in Brno, Czech Republic, as the UIS flag is
hoisted.
There is no financial award, except the honour of composing the UIS Anthem.
Initial contact to:
Ian Ellis Chandler. MA
UIS Arts and Letters Commission
artca...@yahoo.es
Telephone: 0034 942619903 (Spain)
--- End Message ---
