texascavers Digest 10 Aug 2010 16:47:58 -0000 Issue 1132
Topics (messages 15763 through 15771):
Re: cave closures
15763 by: Brian Vauter
15771 by: Mark Minton
Re: Location for TCR
15764 by: Josh Rubinstein
Re: NSS Convention ?
15765 by: Josh Rubinstein
15768 by: caverarch.aol.com
15769 by: Fritz Holt
Re: TPWD - Wildlife Permitting (Scientific Collector Advisory)
15766 by: Josh Rubinstein
15770 by: Mark Minton
feds fear lawsuits?
15767 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
Administrivia:
To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com>
To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>
To post to the list, e-mail:
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Do you think the Feds are also not letting up on their policy for fear of
lawsuits from environmental groups?
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
> This is essentially what happened here in Virginia. Initially
> there was a knee-jerk, blanket ban on caving, but then people realized that
> cavers were the eyes and ears on and under the ground that provided
> real-time info on how the bats were doing. The policy soon changed to
> allowing caving with decon. That was true for everyone but the feds; the
> USFWS never relaxed their caving ban. My guess is that they won't do so any
> time soon - they are the most remote from cavers and the most impenetrable.
> Fortunately for us that affects relatively few of the caves most of us visit
> regularly.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think the feds are worried about law suits, except
possibly in the cases where federally endangered bats are
involved. Endangered species are the only ones they are legally
obliged to protect, and many of those sites are already protected. I
think it is political. People want them to be seen as doing
something, and this is something public they can do with little
expense. Cavers are not much of a constituency, so our protests go
largely unnoticed. This kind of overreaction is typical whenever
public agencies and politicians are up against something over which
they have no control, but where they are expected to act anyway. Of
course it all becomes a farce when they continue to allow commercial
caves to operate. Money and politics almost always trump logic. :-(
Mark Minton
At 11:39 AM 8/10/2010, Brian Vauter wrote:
Mark,
Do you think the Feds are also not letting up on their policy for
fear of lawsuits from environmental groups?
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
This is essentially what happened here in
Virginia. Initially there was a knee-jerk, blanket ban on caving,
but then people realized that cavers were the eyes and ears on and
under the ground that provided real-time info on how the bats were
doing. The policy soon changed to allowing caving with
decon. That was true for everyone but the feds; the USFWS never
relaxed their caving ban. My guess is that they won't do so any
time soon - they are the most remote from cavers and the most
impenetrable. Fortunately for us that affects relatively few of
the caves most of us visit regularly.
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Allen,
Here is a suggestion. The regional caving events I participated in; MAR,
VAR, NRO and SERA; have been hosted by a different grottos or group of
grottos each year. That helps divide the work and prevents burn-out. The
host grotto, of course, chooses the location which means you move around and
see caves in different parts of the region. A few central location tend to
be used often. But every once and a while you drive ten hours to see a far
off program which is small with new people and always interesting and fun.
If there is no joy in volunteer work my suggestion is to stop doing it. If
people want it to happen, they will step forward. And, then, you could
enjoy a TCR,.
Josh
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Allan Cobb <a...@oztotl.com> wrote:
> Well a week has passed since I offered to let someone come up with a better
> location. As expected, no one did.
>
> Did anyone even try? I doubt it.
>
> Over the past week, I thought about why I even bother organizing TCR if a
> very vocal minority will do nothing but complain. Is it really worth it? I
> think it is, that is why I do it.
>
> I've noticed that those who complain the most are the ones who actually do
> little or nothing to make TCR happen. Yet their vocal complaining is an
> irritation that I frankly don't need. It is also an irritation to others.
> Coming to TCR is your personal choice. If you choose not to come, fine, you
> miss the fun.
>
> TCR is put together by a very dedicated group of volunteers who spend more
> hours than they care to count getting everything ready, running, and
> breaking down TCR. Trust me, we don't do all this work to make ourselves
> heroes, we do it so that other can come out and have fun. Other than a few
> key volunteers, no one ever really sees all the people who work to make TCR
> happen. I want to thank all these people who put their time and effort into
> TCR. Thank you volunteers, thank you very much
>
> If people still want to complain about the location, go ahead, it really
> isn't too late to cancel TCR.
>
> Allan
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Cobb
> To: 'TexasCavers'
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:58 AM
> Subject: [Texascavers] Location for TCR
>
>
> Since so many people have complained about my choice for the location of
> TCR, I am will to make a deal. Anyone who wants to can find a better site.
> For one week only, I am willing to change the location if a better site can
> be found. Here is your chance to make a difference. Channel all your
> energy that has been used for complaining into finding a site. Send me
> informaion on location, description, cost, and availability. Now get out
> there and get to looking!
>
> Allan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
El,
You are the future of the NSS.
Josh
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 9:26 AM, ellie :) <ellie.tho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Watch your mouth yall- im still revelling in my youth! The kind folks
> of New York are have been taking me into their caves the last 3 days
> of Post Convention Camp. I plan to get into another cave today!
>
> On 8/9/10, Josh Rubinstein <kars...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > Well, let's see. Four days ago I was standing on ice. It was in Cave of
> > the Winds, a tectonic cave on Mt. Mansfield, Vermont's highest mountain.
> > Pretty good for August.
> >
> > Before I recap convention let me congratulate Bob Cowell, new Fellow of
> > the Society, and Geary Schindel, the new NSS Administrative Vice
> President.
> >
> > Okay, For all those who said there was no caving; WRONG! It was just you
> > couldn't fit. Well, at least, on the Vermont side. On the Adirondack
> side,
> > the cave's were maneuverable and beautiful washed marble. And, like, I
> > said, on Friday I was on ice.
> >
> > Many of the session did not happen for lack of entries. Mark and Vonny
> did
> > a wonderful job of beating the bushes for an excellent International
> > Exploration session. I especially liked the Kite Flying in Chinese
> Caves.
> > The Geology session was a Milroy short course on the island karst of
> > Bahamas, Barbados and Guam. The other set of talks where from Andraus and
> > his students on the 'climate' of various caves including Jewel and
> > Carlsbad. Late in the day, Matt Covington presented a paper that went by
> in
> > whirl of variables but I think it looked very interesting.
> >
> > On Wednesday there was a presentation on WNS. One of the saddest moments
> > came when someone asked how the fungus spread from Hasbrook Mine to
> Aolius
> > Cave, neither place often visited by humans. "Maybe we did it." answered
> Al
> > Hicks, the head bat guy in New York. You could see that they were
> > struggling with the same thing cavers are. Even before they go to
> collect
> > data, they asked is it worth the possibility that we will do harm. It
> was
> > clear that those who have seen these massive die-offs are changed.
> >
> > We know more about WNS than I thought we did. The bat's are awakened by
> the
> > lesions caused by the fungus. Some may survives but their wings are
> > tattered and they can die well into summer because they no longer can
> hunt
> > efficiently. It seems that while in hibernation the bats can not launch
> an
> > immune response. That I read to mean this is a problem of hibernating
> bats,
> > not the Free tail (Crash, correct me if I am wrong).
> >
> > Finally, it was a very old convention. They brought a cake up for Art
> > Palmer for his 70th birthday. He was my advisor and I had no idea. Will
> > White got ovation for attending successively 57 conventions. There was
> no
> > award for a paper given by someone under 25 because there weren't any.
> > There were handful young people and some children of cavers, but that was
> > it.
> >
> > Josh
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:09 PM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
> >
> >> The sessions I went to went very well. Yvonne Droms and I were
> in
> >> charge of International Exploration on Wednesday and we had a full day
> of
> >> exciting talks from China to Mexico and points in between, often with
> >> standing room only. My guess is that the average age was more like 50,
> >> but
> >> it is definitely creeping up. The Syphons were great, as always. The
> >> weather was often rainy, but that's par for the course at NSS
> Conventions.
> >> At least there were not high winds, so not many camps were damaged.
> >> Groad
> >> Hollow was in a nice spot in the woods, which was very nice.
> >>
> >> Mark Minton
> >>
> >>
> >> At 10:03 PM 8/8/2010, David wrote:
> >>
> >>> I presume everybody is home safe now from the convention ?
> >>>
> >>> I feel it is important to discuss the convention, to encourage new
> cavers
> >>> unfamiliar with the NSS to attend future conventions, and for those
> >>> that really wanted to go, but just couldn't make it.
> >>>
> >>> This was a difficult convention for most Texas cavers to attend.
> >>> Only about 13 percent
> >>> showed up. But there were still more Texas cavers there than Vermont
> >>> cavers. ( I bet this convention probably broke the record for the
> number
> >>> of Vermont cavers to attend. ).
> >>>
> >>> I searched the web looking for reports about the convention, but
> >>> did not find anything. I regret missing almost all of it. Maybe
> >>> there are still some cavers that are not home yet,
> >>> who have stories to tell?
> >>>
> >>> I saw nearly 25 cavers there from Texas, along with their families.
> >>>
> >>> Here are just a few that were wandering around the Howdy Party: Tom
> >>> Summers,
> >>> RD Milhollin, Mike Walsh, Jim Kennedy, Bill Mixon, Terry Raines &
> family,
> >>> Mark Minton ( lives in VA now ),
> >>> Peter Strickland and sons, Lee Jay Graves, Keith and Lisa Goggins
> >>> ( of the Terminal Siphons ), Rene Shields, Gary Napper, Chris
> Thibodaux,
> >>> Ellie Theone, Jim Coke, and Bill Stone. Who did I leave
> >>> out ? ( Michael Cicherski, Benjamin and Corrine Schwartz, Kenneth
> >>> Laidlaw, Josh
> >>> Rubenstein and Rex Williams )
> >>>
> >>> But there were also lots of cavers there
> >>> that many of you know like: Dale Pate, and famous cavers like
> >>> Roger Brucker and Dick Blenz, and most likely dozens of others that
> >>> I didn't get a chance to say hello to.
> >>>
> >>> The average age of the cavers attending seems to get one year older at
> >>> each convention.
> >>> A safe guess would be over 50, but my bet would be 60.
> >>>
> >>> I think I saw at least one Facebook posting that the Terminal Siphons
> >>> put on a great show.
> >>>
> >>> I posted my final road-trip report privately by e-mail, so if you want
> >>> to read it, feel free to contact me.
> >>>
> >>> Some expressed mixed feelings about my intentions for driving
> >>> to Vermont. I did make a last-minute faithful attempt to take cavers
> on
> >>> my little joyride. I posted ride offers on Cavechat.org and NSS
> >>> On-line Cavers,
> >>> and here on Cavetex.
> >>>
> >>> Yesterday, I picked up my 4th Craigslist rider in Slidell, Louisiana
> and
> >>> he paid me $ 40 to drop him off in Houston. After this experience,
> I
> >>> would
> >>> highly discourage others from offering cross-country rides on
> Craigslist.
> >>>
> >>> I would be interested to know how the sessions went, and the salons,
> >>> and the Terminal Siphons concert. And more about Vermont, for
> example,
> >>> how were the caves and the caving ? How did the weather turn out?
> >>>
> >>> I learned that Vermont has pockets of paradise that are well worth
> >>> visiting. I only got to see 2 of them very briefly on this trip.
> >>>
> >>> If anybody wants to tell me about their trip privately, I would like to
> >>> read it.
> >>>
> >>> This trip was probably the hardest of my life, but I had at least 8
> >>> hours of fun,
> >>> that I could not have had, had I chosen to stay home.
> >>>
> >>> For example, have you ever been at the edge of a virgin pit
> >>> in going virgin cave, and decided to turn around and head out, knowing
> >>> that
> >>> you would never be able to return? I wouldn't know that feeling,
> >>> but that was
> >>> probably how I felt when I started the car and started heading south
> >>> after leaving
> >>> the Howdy Party.
> >>>
> >>> David Locklear
> >>>
> >>
> >> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
> >> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hear! Hear! That was apparent after the Spring meeting, among other things!
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Rubinstein <kars...@gmail.com>
To: ellie :) <ellie.tho...@gmail.com>
Cc: Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net>; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 10, 2010 10:54 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: NSS Convention ?
El,
You are the future of the NSS.
Josh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When attending ICS and the spring convention I was impressed that someone so
young had such organizational skills and enthusiasm. Ellie is a most attractive
young lady.
Fritz
________________________________
From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 11:08 AM
To: kars...@gmail.com; ellie.tho...@gmail.com
Cc: mmin...@caver.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: NSS Convention ?
Hear! Hear! That was apparent after the Spring meeting, among other things!
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Rubinstein <kars...@gmail.com>
To: ellie :) <ellie.tho...@gmail.com>
Cc: Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net>; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 10, 2010 10:54 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: NSS Convention ?
El,
You are the future of the NSS.
Josh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andy,
Thanks. I had not seen the grading scale for the lesions that the paper
linked to (
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/PDF/Reichard_Scarring%20index%20bat%20wings.pdf).
The hyphea of the fungus (the white stuff) is pulled off easily. It is
lesions that signify infection.
thanks again,
Josh
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp <
andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just received this advisory from our permitting folks. It is being
> sent out to all scientific permit holders who may work in caves but I think
> cavers might find it of interest as well. This is not a notice of closure
> or anything of the sort. Just good ol' common sense.
>
> Andy
>
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
> 700 Billie Brooks Drive
> Driftwood, Texas 78619
> (512) 799-1095
> a...@gluesenkamp.com
>
> The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) would like to make all
> scientific research permit holders aware of a current Scientific Collector
> Advisory concerning White-nose Syndrome. While the majority of current
> permit holders do not collect bats, this message is intended to alert
> researchers to growing concerns about the spread of this disease. The
> following links will provide information to aid in its identification, alert
> all to current requirements surrounding the use of equipment, and offer a
> TPWD point of contact for questions regarding this disease.**
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *Scientific Collector Advisory*
>
> * *
>
> *Considerations of White-nose Syndrome in Bats during Scientific
> Collecting Activities *
>
> Since you have applied for a Wildlife Collector’s Permit to trap, salvage,
> or collect bats, you are likely aware of White-nose Syndrome (WNS) and the
> danger it poses to populations of cave bats in North America . If you are
> not familiar with this disease, please take the time to familiarize
> yourself. A few websites that provide good information and additional links
> are:
>
>
>
> National Speleological Society http://caves.org/WNS
>
> US Fish & Wildlife Service http://www.fws.gov/northeast/white_nose.html
>
> Bat Conservation International http://www.batcon.org/wns
>
> USGS National Wildlife Health Center
> http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/white-nose_syndrome/index.jsp
>
>
>
> Even if you are already aware of WNS, it is a good idea to check one or
> more of these websites regularly because new information is posted quite
> often.
>
>
>
> Noticeable signs of a fungal infection are scars and damage to wings and
> other membranous tissues and/or white fuzz on the nose and wings. See the
> following website for descriptions and pictures of affected tissues –
> http://www.fws.gov/northeast/PDF/Reichard_Scarring%20index%20bat%20wings.pdf
>
> * *
>
> *Examine all bats handled or collected for wing damage and score them
> according to this index. Pictures of suspicious damage should be taken and
> submitted. *
>
>
>
> Report any signs of WNS to John Young at Texas Parks and Wildlife
> Department (john.yo...@tpwd.state.tx.us) as soon as possible.
>
>
>
> Because human spread of WNS is considered a possibility, the following
> special notes apply to your Wildlife Collector’s Permit – *Any equipment
> that has contacted bats or has been inside caves or mines in confirmed
> WNS-affected states are prohibited from being used in Texas . Equipment
> used in Texas should be decontaminated with with a 10% bleach solution, 3%
> Lysol, or other USFWS recommended disinfectant, before being used at another
> location. *For additional disinfection protocols see:
>
> http://www.fws.gov/northeast/pdf/2008%20Summer%20Protocols_15May2008b.pdf
>
> * *
>
> *USFWS is requiring case-by-case approval for the use of harp traps
> (especially at hibernacula entrances during fall swarming and spring
> emergence), please contact John Young (512-389-8047) at Texas Parks and
> Wildlife Department if you are planning to use a harp trap in Texas or have
> other questions related to WNS. *
>
> * *
>
> *Thank you for all you do.*
>
> * *
>
> *Chris Maldonado*
>
> *Wildlife Permits Specialist*
>
> *Texas Parks & Wildlife Department*
>
> *4200 Smith School Road*
>
> *Austin**, Texas 78744*
>
> *(512) 389-4647*
>
> *(512) 389-4550 fax*
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andy,
There are a couple of errors/updates in
that advisory that you might want to pass along
to the powers that be. The link for the USFWS
white-nose page has changed to
<http://www.fws.gov/WhiteNoseSyndrome/>. There
is a newer USFWS decon protocol (June 2010) at
<http://www.fws.gov/WhiteNoseSyndrome/ppt/NPS_Decontamination_Protocols_Webinar_June_9_2010.ppt>,
also available as PDF on the NSS WNS page. For
decon your advisory says 10% bleach or 3% Lysol,
but the latter should actually be 0.3% Lysol (an
order of magnitude less), and not just any Lysol,
but specifically the antibacterial type with quaternary ammonium salts.
Mark Minton
At 11:02 AM 8/10/2010, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote:
I just received this advisory from our
permitting folks. It is being sent out to all
scientific permit holders who may work in caves
but I think cavers might find it of interest as
well. This is not a notice of closure or
anything of the sort. Just good ol' common sense.
Andy
The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD)
would like to make all scientific research
permit holders aware of a current Scientific
Collector Advisory concerning White-nose
Syndrome. While the majority of current permit
holders do not collect bats, this message is
intended to alert researchers to growing
concerns about the spread of this disease. The
following links will provide information to aid
in its identification, alert all to current
requirements surrounding the use of equipment,
and offer a TPWD point of contact for questions regarding this disease.
Scientific Collector Advisory
Considerations of White-nose Syndrome in Bats
during Scientific Collecting Activities
Since you have applied for a Wildlife
Collectorâs Permit to trap, salvage, or
collect bats, you are likely aware of White-nose
Syndrome (WNS) and the danger it poses to
populations of cave bats in North America . If
you are not familiar with this disease, please
take the time to familiarize yourself. A few
websites that provide good information and additional links are:
National Speleological Society http://caves.org/WNS
US Fish & Wildlife Service http://www.fws.gov/northeast/white_nose.html
Bat Conservation International http://www.batcon.org/wns
USGS National Wildlife Health Center
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/white-nose_syndrome/index.jsp
Even if you are already aware of WNS, it is a
good idea to check one or more of these websites
regularly because new information is posted quite often.
Noticeable signs of a fungal infection are scars
and damage to wings and other membranous tissues
and/or white fuzz on the nose and wings. See the
following website for descriptions and pictures
of affected tissues
<http://www.fws.gov/northeast/PDF/Reichard_Scarring%20index%20bat%20wings.pdf
Examine all bats handled or collected for wing
damage and score them according to this index.
Pictures of suspicious damage should be taken and submitted.
Report any signs of WNS to John Young at Texas
Parks and Wildlife Department
(john.yo...@tpwd.state.tx.us) as soon as possible.
Because human spread of WNS is considered a
possibility, the following special notes apply
to your Wildlife Collectorâs Permit Any
equipment that has contacted bats or has been
inside caves or mines in confirmed WNS-affected
states are prohibited from being used in Texas
. Equipment used in Texas should be
decontaminated with with a 10% bleach solution,
3% Lysol, or other USFWS recommended
disinfectant, before being used at another
location. For additional disinfection protocols see:
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/pdf/2008%20Summer%20Protocols_15May2008b.pdf
USFWS is requiring case-by-case approval for the
use of harp traps (especially at hibernacula
entrances during fall swarming and spring
emergence), please contact John Young
(512-389-8047) at Texas Parks and Wildlife
Department if you are planning to use a harp
trap in Texas or have other questions related to WNS.
Thank you for all you do.
Chris Maldonado
Wildlife Permits Specialist
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, Texas 78744
(512) 389-4647
(512) 389-4550 fax
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
maybe, just maybe:
http://www.statesman.com/news/local/austin-travis-county-u-s-fish-and-wildlife-850774.html
--- On Tue, 8/10/10, Brian Vauter <bvau...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark,
Do you think the Feds are also not letting up on their policy for fear of
lawsuits from environmental groups?
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
This is essentially what happened here in Virginia. Initially there
was a knee-jerk, blanket ban on caving, but then people realized that cavers
were the eyes and ears on and under the ground that provided real-time info on
how the bats were doing. The policy soon changed to allowing caving with
decon. That was true for everyone but the feds; the USFWS never relaxed their
caving ban. My guess is that they won't do so any time soon - they are the
most remote from cavers and the most impenetrable. Fortunately for us that
affects relatively few of the caves most of us visit regularly.
--- End Message ---
