texascavers Digest 14 Jun 2010 21:34:54 -0000 Issue 1081
Topics (messages 15121 through 15128):
Re: a cave question (Cave Entrance Tags)
15121 by: Mark Minton
15124 by: Don Cooper
Re: Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves.
15122 by: Fritz Holt
15123 by: Mark Minton
Chip Clark is dead
15125 by: Gill Edigar
Paging Chuck Noe
15126 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Re: Neals at Concan and BAT PICTURES
15127 by: Fritz Holt
Another observational/semiscientific explanation of high CO2 in caves
15128 by: rafal kedzierski
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Projects like PEP used to mark cave entrances with metal
tags. This was intended to serve as a record that a cave was known
and recorded in a database. It was not reliable after a few years,
though, because the tags could get overgrown with moss, etc. and be
difficult to find or fall off due to frost fracturing or other
mechanical processes. On large entrances one wouldn't necessarily
even know where to look. Where would you tag Infiernillo? Nowadays
GPS is a much more reliable method of keeping track of known caves
and their locations, although it can also have problems if the data
quality is poor or the datum is unknown.
Mark Minton
At 02:55 AM 6/14/2010, [email protected] wrote:
Using metal strips or tags was once a popular method of marking
stations in Texas caves. You can still find them in some of the
caves that were surveyed back around the 1960s. I still use colored
aluminum tags for permanent stations that I want to easily relocate.
Jerry.
In a message dated 6/13/2010 11:08:19 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I have a question, or questions.
Do cavers still place numerical metal tags at caves?
Do any caves still have the old metal tags around them ?
My memory seems to recall seeing a round tag a little
bigger than a quarter with a number on it at a cave I
once went to.
I can't remember if I saw that at CBSP or somewhere
else where cavers were marking caves. Maybe out
at Bandera ?
If my memory is correct, was this a grotto thing, or a
TSS thing, or some other group?
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
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And another thing about tags....
Traipsing about the woods around Conrad Castillo - my little group came
across a cave at the base of a cliff. It looked like a good one. You could
see it drop off to the left and there were stals on the ceiling. It had a
tag, so its assumed its already been all accounted for. We're looking for
"new caves" after all.
However - who's holding the index? All we had was a little number and
there was no information about these tags at the field house. Best we
could do was to write down the number and perhaps get Peter Sprouse to look
it up for us when we got back to Austin....
A system. Indeed. Not a real good solution in that time and place. Of
course these days, the entire index and all the maps could be put on
someone's iPhone.
I digress...
-WaV
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:
> Projects like PEP used to mark cave entrances with metal tags. This
> was intended to serve as a record that a cave was known and recorded in a
> database. It was not reliable after a few years, though, because the tags
> could get overgrown with moss, etc. and be difficult to find or fall off due
> to frost fracturing or other mechanical processes. On large entrances one
> wouldn't necessarily even know where to look. Where would you tag
> Infiernillo? Nowadays GPS is a much more reliable method of keeping track
> of known caves and their locations, although it can also have problems if
> the data quality is poor or the datum is unknown.
>
> Mark Minton
>
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Jerry,
Scientifically a little over my head but your information here along with that
of Bill and Butch is most informative and interesting. It is nice to have
intelligent and informed cavers in our group.
Thanks.
Fritz
________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 1:52 AM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves.
Elevated CO2 is a common occurrence in Texas caves with the highest levels
typically being found in caves developed in the Ellenburger or Austin Chalk
formations. Both of these formations have low permeabilities, and it is
conjectured that this impedes the ability of CO2, once it accumulates, to
absorb back into the rock/water portion of the formation. That said, even
caves developed in formations with higher permeability and/or restricted air
flow may have elevated levels of CO2; usually not in amounts that cause
physical distress.
As to the cause of high CO2 levels, there are several possibilities:
1.) microbial decomposition of organic matter
2.) excessive degassing of CO2 from formation water at the water/air interface
3.) degassing and/or breakdown of carbonates due to hypogene fluids moving up
from depth (these fluids may be related to hydrocarbons or igneous activity)
4.) Excessive human respiration in restricted passages
Bill Elliott and Butch Fralia conducted oxygen (O2) and carbon dioxide (CO2)
studies in several Texas caves and found that the amount O2 and CO2 in the cave
air usually added up to approximately 21% of the total composition of the air
no matter what the relative proportions of the two gases were. Normal air
contains 20.9% O2 and 0.04% CO2 by volume. In caves with bad air, the CO2
typically displaces the O2 proportionately so that if CO2 levels approach 4%,
then O2 levels are usually 17%. It should be noted that this relationship does
not always apply !
To test for CO2, use the BIC lighter test that Butch Fralia published some
years ago:
"I've followed the air quality measurement comments of the last few Digests
with great interest. Over the last nine years I've participated in a volunteer
cave research project at a Texas State Park. Of the 150+ caves on the park, the
majority have some level of measurable CO2 accumulation ranging from detectable
to deadly. Over the course of this project, the state has furnished air quality
instruments for our use. One is an electronic oxygen meter and a Draeger
device. Using these instruments, we've taken literally thousands of air quality
measurements.
"The Draeger instrument was by far the most reliable. The problem with the
Draeger is the high cost of the tubes, of which one is expended with each
measurement and not reusable. The Oxygen meter has a probe that must cleaned
often and replaced about every three months. I don't know if later model
instruments have this same problem. The oxygen meters are calibrated on the
surface at 21% oxygen. It's easily knocked out of calibration while moving
through tight passage areas.
"Unless a caver is involved in a research project such as the one on the state
park, the cheapest and most reliable air quality instrument available is a BIC
lighter. It can be obtained for about $0.97 at any convenience store and easily
replaced when damaged or depleted. It's within the budgetary range of anyone
who can afford to go caving in the first place. This may sound like a cop out
to the folks who've offered all the fine advice on air quality instruments
but......read on gentle caver!
"When caving in the Arbuckle Mountains, the BIC was the air quality instrument
of choice though at the time, no one knew how reliable or accurate it was at
the time.
"During the course of the state park project, we became curious at what oxygen
levels the lighter would start reacting. Using the instruments we set up a
number of controlled experiments and verified them with a number of repetitions
over several years with different brands.
"The lighter will start reacting at 19.5% oxygen. The flame changes color and a
small gap will begin to be noticeable between the flame and the jet. At 18%
oxygen, the flame will burn about 1 inch above the jet. At 17% oxygen, the
lighter goes out and can not be relit. As mentioned earlier, these measurements
were very repeatable and could be verified by anyone with the instruments to do
so.
"In our tests, 99% of the time the oxygen was displaced by an equal amount of
CO2, such that 17% oxygen = 4% CO2. This was not always the case! In two caves,
the measurements were typically out of balance where the CO2 was 2% higher than
indicated by the oxygen level. This was repeated over years of data! At the
very least, when the lighter no longer burns, STOP!
"I should mention at this point that the physiological effects of bad air
result from the CO2 rather than oxygen deprivation! Most cavers, unless they
are asthmatic, can tolerate 17% [O2] without much difficulty; they will breath
heavier than normal for the amount of work being performed. At CO2 levels > 2%,
the caver should cave slowly! Especially when climbing! High CO2 will result in
a much higher rate of breathing, the skin will be flushed to pink, and you feel
hotter than you'd expect in a 68 degree cave. Hallucination, panic and even
passing out are typical reactions, especially when the CO2 level is greater
than 4%. Coming back to the surface, headaches and even severe nausea may be
experienced. This can be prevented by stopping in an area that has between 18%
to 19% oxygen for at least 15 minutes before moving on to normal air. Those of
us who smoke seem to be able to handle higher levels of CO2 than non-smokers
since we're used to poor air quality anyway.
"If you can afford it and want to play, buy the Draeger for a reliable and
accurate instrument, otherwise 'Flick you BIC!' (Fralia)"
http://thelances.org/hr3/badair.html
Jerry.
In a message dated 6/13/2010 10:46:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Someone ought to post more on this subject because of the potential for
Hazardous levels of Carbon Dioxide in many areas of Texas.
We seem to have been blessed with a lot of karst (Ellenburger primarily) prone
to generating high levels of CO2 in the warmer months. I can tell you that it
can certainly present a life threatening scenario where vertical caving is
concerned.
I have been in very low air while crawling around and it can be very
disconcerting but one can generally evacuate to better air or be assisted. On
rope in still air it can most certainly become life threatening very quickly
when rappelling into a pool of Carbon Dioxide. I became severely disoriented
and made an emergency egress after fast rappelling 75 feet into a cave in Cedar
Park and hitting the bottom in what was probably life threatening levels of
CO2. Had I not made it out it would probably have been a body recovery and
could have involved more than one person if another caver had descended to aid
me not knowing the nature of the emergency.
You should be aware that CO2 is a common occurrence in many caves and if you
are on rope descend with caution should you notice bad air. It doesn't mean it
will be life threatening but the change can occur very quickly and one needs to
be prepared, should the air suddenly become extremely bad, to change over and
get the hell out post haste.
I know decomposition of organic debris is the primary cause in most caves. Not
sure what research has been done on this phenomena or why it seems to occur
mainly in many Ellenberger caves. Want to say this is an oil bearing rock and
CO2 may be the result of microbial activity? Any comments on this from someone
in the know.
Scott
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A notorious bad air cave in Texas is Keyser's (Kaiser's)
Cave in Mason County. It has been partially explored on more than
one occasion by people breathing out of scuba tanks; not a very
practical way to go caving. On one trip we measured normal (0.035%)
CO2 at the entrance, 1% halfway down the 10-m entrance pit, and a
whopping 9% at the bottom. Anything above about 5% is deadly. In
Caves and Karst of Texas (1994 NSS Convention Guidebook) it mentions
an early measurement of 21% CO2 in this cave. If the rule of thumb
that carbon dioxide plus oxygen add up to 21%, that would indicate 0%
oxygen! That's the highest CO2 level I've ever heard of.
Another notorious bad air cave, also described in Caves and
Karst of Texas, is Marguerite Cave (Medina County). Like Keyser's,
it has never been fully explored due to bad air, although remarkably
it has been surveyed for over 400 meters. Both Marguerite's and
Keyser's take surface streams that deposit large amounts of organic
debris into the caves.
In addition to the other dangers of free diving sumps, bad
air can also greet the diver on the far side of a sump. This
happened to one well-known caver who was rescued because the people
manning his life line saw his light drift down to the bottom shortly
after he surfaced on the far side of a short sump in Mexico. They
hauled him back and resuscitated him.
Whenever bad air is likely, one should proceed with caution
and constant awareness of the effects of high CO2 (rapid breathing,
inability to catch your breath, headache, fatigue even without
exertion, clumsiness, disorientation, anxiety, etc.). Vertical
caving under these conditions is especially dangerous. One should
proceed slowly and carefully check the air on the way down. Be ready
to switch over to ascent if symptoms are noted.
Mark Minton
At 11:46 PM 6/13/2010, SS wrote:
Someone ought to post more on this subject because of the potential
for Hazardous levels of Carbon Dioxide in many areas of Texas.
We seem to have been blessed with a lot of karst (Ellenberger
primarily) prone to generating high levels of CO2 in the warmer
months. I can tell you that it can certainly present a life
threatening scenario where vertical caving is concerned.
I have been in very low air while crawling around and it can be very
disconcerting but one can generally evacuate to better air or be
assisted. On rope in still air it can most certainly become life
threatening very quickly when rappelling into a pool of Carbon
Dioxide. I became severely disoriented and made an emergency egress
after fast rappelling 75 feet into a cave in Cedar Park and hitting
the bottom in what was probably life threatening levels of CO2. Had
I not made it out it would probably have been a body recovery and
could have involved more than one person if another caver had
descended to aid me not knowing the nature of the emergency.
You should be aware that CO2 is a common occurrence in many caves
and if you are on rope descend with caution should you notice bad
air. It doesn't mean it will be life threatening but the change can
occur very quickly and one needs to be prepared, should the air
suddenly become extremely bad, to change over and get the hell out post haste.
I know decomposition of organic debris is the primary cause in most
caves. Not sure what research has been done on this phenomena or
why it seems to occur mainly in many Ellenberger caves. Want to say
this is an oil bearing rock and CO2 may be the result of microbial
activity? Any comments on this from someone in the know.
Scott
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
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>>>>----------fwd from SIVTAC via PSC------------>
Fred Grady sent a message saying that long-time PSC member Chip Clark died
in his sleep Saturday night and he asked me to send a notice to this list.
He has no other information.
-----------------------------
Several of you Texas cavers have had the pleasure of knowing Chip Clark from
Virginia. He was a master cave photographer early in his career. He worked
as a staff photographer for the Smithsonian. He was the only person allowed
to take photos of the devistation of the David Koresh fiasco near Waco. We
are better people for having Chip pass through our lives.
--Ediger
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Chuck, could you please email me offline, or if someone has Chuck's
email address, I'll pester him directly.
Thanks!
Mark
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Daughter Mandy sent me Neal's Lodges website at Concan which has been our
favorite place for 50 years. I may write a short book, 50 Years of Texas' Best
River.
Click on bat tours for some nice pictures of the bats at Frio Cave.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Mandy Holt [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 2:34 PM
To: Jenny Holt; Fritz Holt
Subject: Neals
Wow, have you looked at Neal's lately? Their website is pretty cool, you can
click on the cabins on the location map and it will show you pics of them. And
they have been updated, not like the old dumps they used to be. Interesting
but still crowded compared to Cold Springs. But CS really looks dumpy compared
to the Neal's remodeling. I will have to call Sharon again this weekend to see
what else she has.
http://nealslodges.com
_________________________________________
[cid:[email protected]]
Mandy Holt
Travel Coordinator
512-867-7296
www.ers.state.tx.us<http://www.ers.state.tx.us/>
_________________________________________
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My dad, Wojciech, a chemist and a caver, became intrigued with high CO2 levels
in some Texas caves. For few years in early 1990s, Wojciech and I measured CO2
and O2 in caves of Colorado Bend SP. It became clear that there were two basic
types of high CO2 caves there - (1) those in which CO2 and O2 concentrations
added to 21% (just like outside air) and (2) those in which CO2 and O2
concentrations were much higher than 21%.
In caves which had combined concentrations much higher than 21%, the
concentration of CO2 was at a ratio that suggested that carbon dioxide was
displacing other gases. Such ratios were typically seen in caves which either
have communication with aquifer (such as Gorman Cave) or are very deep and have
presumed communication with aquifer (such as Lemons Ranch Cave). This
suggested in term that water in these caves was outgassing CO2 into cave
atmosphere. Caves that just had organic matter but were not excessively deep
had CO2 and O2 concentration that added up to 21% - suggesting organic matter
was consuming oxygen to make carbon dioxide. Of course, some caves had
combination of both features and intermediate combined carbon dioxide and
oxygen concentrations.
But why high CO2 in caves of Ellenberger and selected limestones? I think one
can come up with lots of explanations - poor fracturing and poor surface
communication, coexisting strata releasing carbon dioxide, etc. I have
suspicion (and some indirect evidence) that overall solutional chemistry of
carbon dioxide must be altered in Ellenberger limestone. From chemistry point
of view, when CO2 is dissolved in water in presence of other acids, it will be
forced to leave the solution. These acids don't have to be stronger than
carbonic acid for this to take effect. I think this is likely what is
happening in Ellenberger - during disolution the rock releases other acidic
compounds that force outgassing of carbon dioxide.
The neat part about this is that this theory is not difficult to test - this is
one of the ideas that Colorado Bend SP project can address.
Rafal Kedzierski
Maverick Grotto
DFW
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