texascavers Digest 26 Jun 2010 05:02:28 -0000 Issue 1088
Topics (messages 15206 through 15215):
Re: review of Tabor's new book
15206 by: Alex Sproul
15207 by: Charles Goldsmith
Re: Questions about temperatures in caves and silver mines
15208 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver out ;)
15209 by: Lydia Hernandez
15210 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
15211 by: Lydia Hernandez
15212 by: Charles Goldsmith
15213 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
15214 by: Charles Goldsmith
15215 by: ryan monjaras
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--- Begin Message ---
>Amazon has the hardcover for $15.60.
Would caver loyalty move anyone (who was already interested in this
book) to purchase it from the NSS Bookstore for, say, $17 or $18 or $20?
After all, the suggested list price is $26.00.
Would any caver who first found this book in the NSS Bookstore for $17
or $18 or $20 not consider looking at Amazon (or Borders, or B&N) to
see if they could find it cheaper?
I'm trying to convince the Bookstore that stocking this or any book is
pointless if they can't sell it at a competitive price and produce at least a
small profit for the Society. But Amazon, like WalMart, has a strangle-hold on its market; they are retailing it for the same price small
booksellers have to pay for it wholesale.
Maybe cavers could be convinced to buy the book from Amazon (and get
free shipping by spending $25), and then just donate the $5 shipping they
saved to the NSS, and save the Bookstore a lot of expense, trouble, and
risk.
Alex
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know Amazon used to have a reseller program for businesses and
non-profits, dunno if it still does or not. Let Amazon do the leg work, and
NSS gets a small profit by supplying the link and advertising. Of course to
get the piece, you have to use the NSS supplied link.
Charles
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Alex Sproul <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Amazon has the hardcover for $15.60.
>
> Would caver loyalty move anyone (who was already interested in this book)
> to purchase it from the NSS Bookstore for, say, $17 or $18 or $20? After
> all, the suggested list price is $26.00.
>
> Would any caver who first found this book in the NSS Bookstore for $17 or
> $18 or $20 *not* consider looking at Amazon (or Borders, or B&N) to see if
> they could find it cheaper?
>
> I'm trying to convince the Bookstore that stocking this or any book is
> pointless if they can't sell it at a competitive price and produce at least
> a small profit for the Society. But Amazon, like WalMart, has a
> strangle-hold on its market; they are *retailing *it for the same price
> small booksellers have to pay for it wholesale.
>
> Maybe cavers could be convinced to buy the book from Amazon (and get free
> shipping by spending $25), and then just donate the $5 shipping they saved
> to the NSS, and save the Bookstore a lot of expense, trouble, and risk.
>
> Alex
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The silver mines you mention are generally hot due to localized geothermal
anomalies caused by relatively shallow magma bodies at depth. This creates
an elevated temperature gradient (deg F/ft) that can be much greater than
is normally observed. Nevada has a much higher temperature gradient than
most of the US due to the pervasive Basin and Range faulting of that region.
Temperatures in mines can be quite a bit hotter than 150 deg F at one mile
in depth.
Typical temperature gradients (Tg) in Texas are from 1.25 to 2.5 deg F /
100 ft. To estimate the temperature at any given depth, multiply the Tg X
depth (in hundreds of feet) and add the average surface temperature of the
area (usually about 68 - 70 deg F in the Hill Country). If you calculate the
average Hill Country temperature for a depth of one mile (5280 ft), you get
a temperature of about 150 deg F.
Deep caves usually don't reach these temperatures for a variety of
reasons. Krubera's entrance is at high elevation and the average surface
temperatures are relatively low. Also, air exchange with the surface and water
flow
through the cave tend to transport heat away from the cave. That said,
Krubera does have an air temperature gradient within the cave. The air
temperature near the entrance is 36 deg F; near the bottom at -2080m in depth,
it's 46 deg F.
Some years ago, Bill Russell authored an excellent article on cave
temperatures and the effect of climate, elevation, geothermal gradient, and
air/water movement on the ambient cave temperatures across North America.
Russell, [William H.] (=Bill). 1979. Cave temperature. Texas Caver,
24:58-62.
Jerry.
In a message dated 6/24/2010 7:53:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Last night I was watching a show about silver mines on the History
channel. In the show, they had mentioned how hot it was in one mine about a
mile
down. It was over 100 degrees F! They also talked about another mine that
wasn't so deep, but was also very hot. I think one was in Nevada and the
other was in Idaho(?).
So... this got me to wondering - is the world's deepest cave - Krubera
Cave very hot? Or does it have more moderate temps like most caves? I've read
some about Krubera, but have never seen any mention of the temps. I know
that the Naica crystal cave in Mexico is really hot, and that it has a lot to
do with the geologic activity.
Also - does anyone know why the deep silver mines would be so hot? Is it
simply because they're man-made, so the mine can't breath? (Plus they have
lots of equipment down there.) Or is it because of the geology?
Scott
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At Cascade Caverns this weekend there will be 3 of us cavers, so far, helping
install new lighting fixtures. If you have the time and want to show up,
anytime, all help is welcome. There are spacious campgrounds and awesome
showers. The caverns are really something to see, quite impressive and worth
the drive out. Only 2 hours from Austin.
Maybe we'll see you there ^_^
peace2u.
-Lydia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arghh!
I wish someone would have announced this earlier in the week, as I would have
liked to have helped.
As it turns out, I now have other plans.
To Scott or whomever is in charge of this project:
Could y'all post announcements on here sooner and on the TSA Calendar at
www.cavetexas.org so we could plan accordingly?
Is there a schedule for this project one could post?
I thought there was going to be one listed here. (See message below in BOLD).
Thanks!
(A frustrated) Mark
________________________________
From: Lydia Hernandez [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 6/25/2010 1:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver out ;)
At Cascade Caverns this weekend there will be 3 of us cavers, so far, helping
install new lighting fixtures. If you have the time and want to show up,
anytime, all help is welcome. There are spacious campgrounds and awesome
showers. The caverns are really something to see, quite impressive and worth
the drive out. Only 2 hours from Austin.
Maybe we'll see you there ^_^
peace2u.
-Lydia
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From: Scott Kyle [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns Lighting and Restoration
Thanks to the efforts of many cavers (Fort Worth, Dallas, Waco, Austin, San
Antonio) during May we have made a good first stab at lighting and restoration
work in the cave. We started the new lighting in the most difficult portion of
the cave to light (Storm Canyon) that starts at 8' high and expands to 50' high
over its 200' length with mud waist deep in parts. There are 9 lighting/tour
"zones" in the cave and we have one complete as of today. There is also much
restoration work to be done. Rock debris needs to be moved to areas where new
walls will be built. Some mud needs to be taken out and some can be stored.
Lighting and restoration can happen concurrently. Depending on interest, I
think we can get lighting and the most pressing restoration efforts completed
by the summer's end.
We have a full service campground with tent to full hookups with shower room
and laundry and a 105 acre site with 5 documented caves, and others (likely)
still to discover. Some parts of the main show cave (Cascade Caverns) have not
been documented - we found one nice new passage during lighting efforts and
there is another visible one near the main entrance that is not on TSS surveys
either.
We'll provide free camping and lunch for those spending at least a full day
working in the cave. We'll also let folks who are putting time into the
lighting/restoration spend time on site doing some caving on the rest of the
site.
Please email me of your interest for JUNE, JULY, and AUGUST and then I can put
a scheduler out there for you to sign up on once there is enough interest.
Thanks again to all of those who have generously given of their time and care
(In no particular order - Edwin, Martin, Lydia, Chris, Charles, Andy Z, Daniel,
Gerry, Monica, Rune, Orion, Linda, Allan, Ryan, & Heather). It has been great
working with you all and getting to know you.
Best, Scott
Scott Kyle, AIA, LEED
Vice President
(830) 755-8080 office, (804) 402-8985 cell
<http://xcgtxe01/exchange/Mark.Alman/Drafts/RE:%20[Texascavers]%20Lighting%20up%20Cascade%20Caverns%20-%20Help%20a%20caver%20out%20;).EML/1_multipart/image001.png?Security=2>
www.cascadecaverns.com
<http://xcgtxe01/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.cascadecaverns.com/>
See Texas Downunder: RV & Tent Camping and Cave Tours Daily
226 Cascade Caverns Rd, Boerne, Texas 78015
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry everyone for the last minute notice but this was just my way of trying to
get some more cavers out there but this isn't the only weekend for work. Also,
weekdays if possible for some, are open for help. I'll be sure to get with
Scott this weekend and see about posting up a calendar. Trust me there is
plenty to do there, it won't be all done tomorrow :)
--- On Fri, 6/25/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver out ;)
To: "Lydia Hernandez" <[email protected]>, [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 2:00 PM
Arghh!
I wish someone would have announced this earlier in the week, as I would have
liked to have helped.
As it turns out, I now have other plans.
To Scott or whomever is in charge of this project:
Could y'all post announcements on here sooner and on the TSA Calendar at
www.cavetexas.org so we could plan accordingly?
Is there a schedule for this project one could post?
I thought there was going to be one listed here. (See message below in BOLD).
Thanks!
(A frustrated) Mark
From: Lydia Hernandez [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 6/25/2010 1:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver out ;)
At Cascade Caverns this weekend there will be 3 of us cavers, so far, helping
install new lighting fixtures. If you have the time and want to show up,
anytime, all help is welcome. There are spacious campgrounds and awesome
showers. The caverns are really something to see, quite impressive and worth
the drive out. Only 2 hours from Austin.
Maybe we'll see you there ^_^
peace2u.
-Lydia
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From: Scott Kyle [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns Lighting and Restoration
Thanks to the efforts of many cavers (Fort Worth, Dallas, Waco, Austin, San
Antonio) during May we have made a good first stab at lighting and restoration
work in the cave. We started the new lighting in the most difficult portion of
the cave to light (Storm Canyon) that starts at 8' high and expands to 50' high
over its 200' length with mud waist deep in parts. There are 9 lighting/tour
"zones" in the cave and we have one complete as of today. There is also much
restoration work to be done. Rock debris needs to be moved to areas where new
walls will be built. Some mud needs to be taken out and some can be stored.
Lighting and restoration can happen concurrently. Depending on interest, I
think we can get lighting and the most pressing restoration efforts completed
by the summer's end.
We have a full service campground with tent to full hookups with shower room
and laundry and a 105 acre site with 5 documented caves, and others (likely)
still to discover. Some parts of the main show cave (Cascade Caverns) have not
been documented - we found one nice new passage during lighting efforts and
there is another visible one near the main entrance that is not on TSS surveys
either.
We'll provide free camping and lunch for those spending at least a full day
working in the cave. We'll also let folks who are putting time into the
lighting/restoration spend time on site doing some caving on the rest of the
site.
Please email me of your interest for JUNE, JULY, and AUGUST and then I can put
a scheduler out there for you to sign up on once there is enough interest.
Thanks again to all of those who have generously given of their time and care
(In no particular order - Edwin, Martin, Lydia, Chris, Charles, Andy Z, Daniel,
Gerry, Monica, Rune, Orion, Linda, Allan, Ryan, & Heather). It has been great
working with you all and getting to know you.
Best, Scott
Scott Kyle, AIA, LEED
Vice President
(830) 755-8080 office, (804) 402-8985 cell
www.cascadecaverns.com
See Texas Downunder: RV & Tent Camping and Cave Tours Daily
226 Cascade Caverns Rd, Boerne, Texas 78015
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lydia, I'll be onsite Saturday and Sunday as well, continuing the work I
started in the Imagination room, I think most of the work is done in Storm
Canyon and the Cathedral room. I think my next step was to put lights up
in the ceiling in the Imagination room, along the fault line. Feel free to
take a crack at that if you like, or where you feel comfortable.
I won't arrive until Saturday afternoon, I'll be driving in from Dallas.
I've also got 2 people showing up Sunday morning to help as well.
And as Lydia stated in another email, we have lots of work left to do.
Lights, resto, mud haulout (this will be a big job) and I think some
surveying will be done as well.
Mark, if you would show up to more than 1 grotto meeting a year, you'd know
about trips :)
Charles
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Lydia Hernandez <[email protected]> wrote:
> At Cascade Caverns this weekend there will be 3 of us cavers, so far,
> helping install new lighting fixtures. If you have the time and want to show
> up, anytime, all help is welcome. There are spacious campgrounds and awesome
> showers. The caverns are really something to see, quite impressive and worth
> the drive out. Only 2 hours from Austin.
>
> Maybe we'll see you there ^_^
>
> peace2u.
> -Lydia
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True that, Charles.
But, the other folks here would still like to know in advance so they can plan
accordingly.
Mark
________________________________
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 6/25/2010 2:16 PM
To: Lydia Hernandez
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver out ;)
Lydia, I'll be onsite Saturday and Sunday as well, continuing the work I
started in the Imagination room, I think most of the work is done in Storm
Canyon and the Cathedral room. I think my next step was to put lights up in
the ceiling in the Imagination room, along the fault line. Feel free to take a
crack at that if you like, or where you feel comfortable.
I won't arrive until Saturday afternoon, I'll be driving in from Dallas. I've
also got 2 people showing up Sunday morning to help as well.
And as Lydia stated in another email, we have lots of work left to do. Lights,
resto, mud haulout (this will be a big job) and I think some surveying will be
done as well.
Mark, if you would show up to more than 1 grotto meeting a year, you'd know
about trips :)
Charles
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Lydia Hernandez <[email protected]> wrote:
At Cascade Caverns this weekend there will be 3 of us cavers, so far,
helping install new lighting fixtures. If you have the time and want to show
up, anytime, all help is welcome. There are spacious campgrounds and awesome
showers. The caverns are really something to see, quite impressive and worth
the drive out. Only 2 hours from Austin.
Maybe we'll see you there ^_^
peace2u.
-Lydia
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com <http://texascavers.com/>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh I understand, but I HAD to jibe you a bit.
We've had enough volunteers that have experience in there, if someone wants
to show up and help out, and need some direction on what to do, we'll
arrange to get someone in there to help. I'm pretty sure the schedule is
wide open to whenever you can go in and spend some time to help.
It's a perfect Texas summer project, since the cave is cool enough
comfortably work in.
Charles
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 2:26 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> True that, Charles.
>
>
> But, the other folks here would still like to know in advance so they can
> plan accordingly.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Charles Goldsmith [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Fri 6/25/2010 2:16 PM
> *To:* Lydia Hernandez
> *Cc:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver
> out ;)
>
> Lydia, I'll be onsite Saturday and Sunday as well, continuing the work I
> started in the Imagination room, I think most of the work is done in Storm
> Canyon and the Cathedral room. I think my next step was to put lights up
> in the ceiling in the Imagination room, along the fault line. Feel free to
> take a crack at that if you like, or where you feel comfortable.
>
> I won't arrive until Saturday afternoon, I'll be driving in from Dallas.
> I've also got 2 people showing up Sunday morning to help as well.
>
> And as Lydia stated in another email, we have lots of work left to do.
> Lights, resto, mud haulout (this will be a big job) and I think some
> surveying will be done as well.
>
> Mark, if you would show up to more than 1 grotto meeting a year, you'd know
> about trips :)
>
> Charles
>
> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Lydia Hernandez <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> At Cascade Caverns this weekend there will be 3 of us cavers, so far,
>> helping install new lighting fixtures. If you have the time and want to show
>> up, anytime, all help is welcome. There are spacious campgrounds and awesome
>> showers. The caverns are really something to see, quite impressive and worth
>> the drive out. Only 2 hours from Austin.
>>
>> Maybe we'll see you there ^_^
>>
>> peace2u.
>> -Lydia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ill be there July 2nd to the 5th, hows that for advanced notice. By the way
does San Antonio do any thing special for forth of July, namely the riverwalk
"Semper Exploro" Ryan MonjarasMaverick GrottoCowtown GrottoDFW
Grotto(832)754-5778
From: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:31:04 -0500
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver out ;)
Oh I understand, but I HAD to jibe you a bit.
We've had enough volunteers that have experience in there, if someone wants to
show up and help out, and need some direction on what to do, we'll arrange to
get someone in there to help. I'm pretty sure the schedule is wide open to
whenever you can go in and spend some time to help.
It's a perfect Texas summer project, since the cave is cool enough comfortably
work in.
Charles
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 2:26 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
True that, Charles.
But, the other folks here would still like to know in advance so they can plan
accordingly.
Mark
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 6/25/2010 2:16 PM
To: Lydia Hernandez
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Lighting up Cascade Caverns - Help a caver out ;)
Lydia, I'll be onsite Saturday and Sunday as well, continuing the work I
started in the Imagination room, I think most of the work is done in Storm
Canyon and the Cathedral room. I think my next step was to put lights up in
the ceiling in the Imagination room, along the fault line. Feel free to take a
crack at that if you like, or where you feel comfortable.
I won't arrive until Saturday afternoon, I'll be driving in from Dallas. I've
also got 2 people showing up Sunday morning to help as well.
And as Lydia stated in another email, we have lots of work left to do. Lights,
resto, mud haulout (this will be a big job) and I think some surveying will be
done as well.
Mark, if you would show up to more than 1 grotto meeting a year, you'd know
about trips :)
Charles
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Lydia Hernandez <[email protected]> wrote:
At Cascade Caverns this weekend there will be 3 of us cavers, so far, helping
install new lighting fixtures. If you have the time and want to show up,
anytime, all help is welcome. There are spacious campgrounds and awesome
showers. The caverns are really something to see, quite impressive and worth
the drive out. Only 2 hours from Austin.
Maybe we'll see you there ^_^
peace2u.
-Lydia
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