-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [Colorado Cave Survey] USFS Region 2 Cave Closures
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:35:12 -0600
From: Rhinehart RMC <rhineh...@rockymountaincaving.com>
To: <colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com>
CC: <skin...@thuntek.net>
Dear Speleo Colleagues:
I think we can all thank Carl and Dave for their time and effort during
their volunteer efforts with the Colorado Cave Survey. However, I don’t
believe they need to apologize. There has been a lot of pain and anger
this last week among cavers as each of us learn what is happening
without our wishes and without our input. We’re reduced to last-minute
calls and pleas, and hoping that the Forest Service regional office
might have second thoughts about their pending decision. It’s probably
unlikely, but we shouldn’t give up our hope at this time.
I’m someone who has been critical of the way events played out in the
last week to ten days, and I am concerned about the integrity of the
data in the Cave Survey files, having provided some of it myself over
the last 35 years. I’m also not sure we should continue our working
relationship with our friends in the White River National Forest if we
are shut out of our caves. This Saturday’s meeting is a good opportunity
to meet with our friends and colleagues and determine what actions we
can and should take in the coming days, weeks, months and even years.
It is likely that the complete closure of all Forest caves will come
within the next five days, and that a BLM closure – perhaps throughout
the West – might happen in the next few weeks or months. Each of us has
the personal decision to make whether we will ignore a federal closure
order, and risk a fine of up to $5,000 and six months in a federal
penitentiary, or if we will honor a closure and limit our caving to
private caves and National Park Service caves (as long as they remain
open). Looking to the eastern United States as a model, we may see our
grottos begin to wither and die as open caving becomes a rare
experience. We’ll also see many cavers become speleo-outlaws, caving
quietly on their own, with no reports at grotto meetings or in
publications. Our 2011 Convention might be the last big event for
Colorado for this decade, or at least until closures are removed by
federal authorities once White Nose Syndrome has run its course.
To be honest, we have a long, hard road ahead. For some of us, this road
may be too long with no certain future. For others, it will take
patience to keep our caving spirit alive, nurtured through trips to
private caves and National Park caves like Wind and Jewel. This
Saturday’s meeting will be our first stop on this new, uncertain
highway. Every caver in Colorado has a voice in our decision making
process and should openly participate without criticism or fear of
reprisal from colleagues. Let’s look ahead, rather than dwell on the past.
Rick Rhinehart
*From:* colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of
*cbe...@juno.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:41 PM
*To:* colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com
*Cc:* skin...@thuntek.net
*Subject:* RE: [Colorado Cave Survey] USFS Region 2 Cave Closures
Some of the shortcomings of the announcement Dave and I sent out on
Friday pointed by Rick Speact and others are valid. Dave and I wrote
that announcement in a short window of time on Friday during Dave’s
workday and me saying goodbye to houseguests and frantically packing for
three days out of town. In our haste to get the message out, we did not
have time to reflect deeply on the message. Unfortunately, that is
sometimes the case with CCS business. Dave and I sacrifice large amounts
of our time and energy trying to advocate for the organized caving
community via the CCS. We take time out of our workdays and weekends for
phone calls, conference calls, and urgent emails. There is always more
CCS work to be done, and even with two of us there is not enough time to
do it. Usually there is some time for us to reflect and consult with
other cavers before we communicate, but this closure issue was moving
very fast.
Now that a blanket closure is practically upon us, the emails and
opinions are flying fast and furious. I remember the silence on the
Google Group in past weeks though when Dave and I were passing along the
little information we could obtain which all pointed towards closures.
Not many opinions were shared then even when we directly invited them.
Perhaps we could have represented the feelings of the community better
in our announcement if more of you had shared your opinions beforehand.
As for the vague accusations that the CCS hands over cave data to the
Forest Service whenever they ask for it, that is FALSE. Some of the
people who raise this accusation time after time know it to be false,
but they do it anyway. For shame. Stuart’s email gives a good summary of
the tiny bit of data that has been shared in the last several years and
reasons why.
As for Rick Speact’s and other caver’s dissection of our announcement,
be glad that you will never be in the position of having to send
something so important out to the whole Colorado caving community on the
fly and with less than half the information you would like to have. It
is not at all condescending to remind cavers about the huge impact WNS
has had on bat species. Stating that our identity as cave
conservationists is being evaluated is an accurate statement. When Dave
and I have told biologists that cavers do not believe closures or decon
will help battle WNS, the biologists always express disappointment.
Dave and I did not make a good distinction between supporting the
necessity of cave closures in general versus blanket closures. We are
being taken to task for that. At the upcoming meeting on Saturday
everyone interested can discuss the situation and I’m sure we’ll have
multiple votes on courses of action. Hopefully that will satisfy some of
you that we will have majority rule on the path forward from here.
Carl
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Speaect" <r...@perryandterry.com>
To: <colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: <skin...@thuntek.net>
Subject: RE: [Colorado Cave Survey] USFS Region 2 Cave Closures
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:31:11 -0600
I think what has bothered me and may be the same impression that Mike
was left with was the tone and tenure of the email.
The decision to close caves anywhere is always difficult and
controversial. It should be noted though that land managing agencies,
caver-run cave conservancies, and private cave owners across the eastern
U.S. and into the west have come to similar conclusions regarding this
course of action for dealing with WNS. As fellow cavers who share your
passion, we know that cave closures are a bitter pill, particularly in
the middle of summer. However, let us remember that over one million
bats are estimated to have died from WNS and certain species face
extinction. Cavers rightfully consider themselves to be stewards of the
underground world. Across the west, our claim to that identity will be
measured to some extent by our support for these closures. While the
USFS Region 2 decision was made without involvement from Carl or myself,
we respect its necessity and support the closure. We hope that the
caving community as a whole will also respect and support the closure.
As this situation continues to evolve, the Colorado Cave Survey will
continue, as always, to advocate for both cave conservation and cave ACCESS
Slightly condescending statement "However, let us remember that over one
million bats are estimated to have died from WNS and certain species
face extinction." I believe we are all aware of the bat deaths.
Stating this statement comes across poorly
"that identity will be measured to some extent by our support for these
closures" is upsetting. They have not consulted us at all. What does
that tell us about their opinion of us.
The statement that " we respect its necessity and support the closure."
Peter Youngbear does not respect the necessity of blanked closures.
If these items bother me I am sure they upset others. I felt that a
report on the status is appropriate but making official statements
regarding the course of the cave survey should be done only after
consulting with other members of the survey. Preaching to cavers is not
helpful. This leaves me with the impression that the CSS has conceded to
the blanket closures and is willing to give cave locations ( even though
I know its not stated) and even assist in putting up signs. I personally
agree with Youngbear.
I believe that Dave and Carl are doing what they think is best in
regards to an explosive situation but the email gives me the impression
that the CSS is a minion of the NSFS with no voice of its own.
*_Please_* don't beat up Dave or Carl they have are dedicated volunteers
and have given many many hours to the CSS. Personal opinions are great
and can lead to positive discussions. I do not believe that any course
of action for the CSS should be endorsed without discussion and possibly
a vote.
This may be why Mike feels that the CSS is not looking out for him?
The bad thing is based on conversations and emails with many cavers I
believe that many cavers agree with Peter Youngbear and will not support
or honor a blanket closure. Since bats transfer the disease to other
colonies I fear we will have little effect either way.
Rick Speaect
NSS 54849 RL
r...@cavetopia.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *MarlattColo
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2010 6:50 AM
*To:* colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com
*Cc:* skin...@thuntek.net
*Subject:* Re: [Colorado Cave Survey] USFS Region 2 Cave Closures
While the news of the WNS closure is understandable upsetting (to say
the very least), I feel that Mike's email needs a response. His
insinuation that "the USFS need only to bat its eyes and the CCS will
give them all the info they ask for" is blatantly incorrect.
Historically, the CCS has provided very little specific information to
the USFS, and has frequently refused providing such information when
requested. The proposed Cave Archival System (which I suspect is drawing
much of Mike's concern here) specifically restricts data from being
provided directly to land managers (see
http://www.coloradocavesurvey.org/CIS_report_6.pdf).
The CCS has, indeed, provided land managers limited data when it has
been in our interest to do so. Examples include working with the USFS to
maintain buffer zones around caves in the Lime Creek area, in
preparation for a large timber sale in that area. Likewise, a partial
list of caves on BLM land was provided a couple years ago to support
management decisions to maintain mineral withdrawal restrictions. (The
caves provided to the BLM were for the most part publicly known,
locations were only given to the 1/4 section, and only a representative
sampling of caves were actually provided). In both of these situations,
the alternative to providing some information could have been wholesale
destruction of numerous caves; in neither case did the sharing of this
data result in ANY increased restriction on cave visitation.
As far as the Mike's proposal to refer all information requests back to
the grottos - Mike is welcome to make such a proposal at a CCS meeting.
However, the current mode of operation seems to me to be working very
well, with the Survey providing representation from each and every
grotto. Survey meetings are open to any and all cavers, and I encourage
all concerned cavers to be involved.
Stuart Marlatt
On Jul 12, 2010, at 8:30 PM, mike frazier wrote:
Hi all,
This crisis it seems is yet another reason not to give one entity
all the information for the caves in this state.
It seems to me that the USFS need only to bat its eyes and the CCS
will give them all the info they ask for.
Of course, it will always be under the guise of protecting the caves
or whats in them. It will soon end up with the USFS using the data
we give them to keep us out. Or at least require a permit. I would
like to see this change. I would like to see the forest service
request the information they would like. The CCS reps should then
take this request back to there grottos to be voted on before
releasing ANY locations. It is the cavers who have done the leg
work. Our knowledge of where the caves are and what is in them is
our power as a group.
Though I predicted someday that a total cave closure by the USFS
could happen. I must admit I was still blindsided by this recent
possibility.
I am hoping as you all are that a full out cave closure will not
happen in Colorado.
Still, I would caution us all in the future not to put all our eggs
in one CCS basket. Keep your hard earned data to your selves and out
of the hands of the USFS.
Or not. Que sera sera
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:26:36 -0600
> From: dgda...@nyx.net <mailto:dgda...@nyx.net>
> To: colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com
<mailto:colorado-cave-sur...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Colorado Cave Survey] USFS Region 2 Cave Closures
> CC: skin...@thuntek.net <mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>
>
> >Dear Colleagues:
> >
> >In a Friday afternoon discussion with Phil Nyland, the White
River National
> >Forest Wildlife Biologist at the Aspen District Office, he
reported that the
> >report of private concessionaires continuing to be allowed to
visit caves
> >was incorrect. He said that the USFS was contacting the
concessionaires and
> >alerting them of the pending closure. Phil also reported that the
WRNF was
> >insistent that the Colorado Cave Survey be notified prior to the
official
> >release of the closure order since the Forest and the Survey have
been
> >working partners for more than 40 years. Though he said there
won't be much
> >of a "silver lining" to the closure order, he did hope that the
Forest and
> >cavers can continue working together and not sever their
relationship.
> >
> >Although Phil and the District 2 Public Affairs person both
independently
> >confirmed the announcement would be forthcoming today, a reporter
from
> >Channel 9 KUSA alerted me this afternoon the District office in
Golden
> >reported to them that the closure order was being reconsidered. This
> >suggests there may be a tiny window of hope.
> >
> >Perhaps forests like the WRNF are alerting the District Forester
that such a
> >closure order will be violated and that another course of action
might be
> >more prudent and supported by the people of the states. We can
always hope!
> >
> >Rick Rhinehart
>
> I found USFS Public Information Specialist Janelle Smith's e-mail
> address on the Web (janellesm...@fs.fed.us
<mailto:janellesm...@fs.fed.us>), and rather than calling her,
> sent her the following modified and corrected version of my previous
> message from this list (with expanded explanation and with
reference to
> private concessionnaires removed), to get it into written record.
>
> Lee Skinner--I'm not a member of any Texas or Arizona lists, but
> you have my permission to pass on the present message to those
(and NM).
>
> --Donald
>
> ----------------
> From dgdavis Mon Jul 12 17:02:53 2010
> To: janellesm...@fs.fed.us <mailto:janellesm...@fs.fed.us>
> Subject: Re: [Colorado Cave Survey] USFS Region 2 Cave Closures
>
> Dave Lambert and Carl Bern wrote on July 9 on the Colorado Cave
> Survey Google Group:
>
> >Fellow cavers,
> >
> >Carl and I have received word that US Forest Service Region 2
plans to
> >announce early next week, a Special Order for closing all caves
region-wide
> >in response to White Nose Syndrome. Region 2 includes all Forest and
> >Grasslands within Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, most of Wyoming and
most of
> >South Dakota. This order will be in effect for 12 months. We have
been told
> >that re-opening any of the affected caves by subsequent Special
Order or
> >permit is extremely unlikely in the next 12 months. [DETAILS CLIPPED]
>
> >Dave Lambert
> >Chairman
> >Colorado Cave Survey
> >
> >Carl Bern
> >Vice-Chairman
> >Colorado Cave Survey
>
> In 53 years of caving, this blanket closure of public caves because
> of White Nose Syndrome is clearly the worst crisis I've seen. It is
> apparently being imposed without justifying logic and does not
merit our
> support. I can cite a disturbingly instructive historical
precedent: the
> enactment of the prohibition of selling alcoholic liquor in the
early 20th
> century. Both measures were well-intentioned and addressed real
problems,
> but were ill-considered. Like Prohibition, a general cave closure
is very
> unpopular and so full of loopholes that it cannot accomplish the
desired
> goal, but will criminalize those who reject it. In the present
case, one
> bad result will be that the managing agency will receive less timely
> information about the possible appearance of WNS in USFS caves,
because
> cavers who abide by the closure will not see sick bats in the
first place,
> while those who defy it will not risk punishment by reporting them
(except
> perhaps anonymously).
>
> In reality, this arbitrary cave closure is apt to be even less
> effective than Prohibition was. Prohibition only had to deal with
human
> actions. While the first appearance of WNS at Knox Caverns, NY is
> strongly suggestive of human introduction, its subsequent spread
is, with
> little doubt, overwhelmingly via bat-to-bat transmission, so that
> restricting human cave visits will not much slow the spread.
Moreover,
> unless the closure also covers abandoned mines, it cannot possibly be
> effective, since in many areas mines are the primary cave-bat habitat.
>
> There will be other major negative repercussions. If instituted,
> the closure will effectively prevent caving at next year's National
> Speleological Society Convention at Glenwood Springs. This can be
> expected to reduce attendance considerably. Even if it is revoked
before
> then, the longer it remains in effect, the more people will decide
not to
> attend on that basis. And without a public caving resource where
the vast
> majority of caves are on public land, will any western state's cavers
> volunteer to host an NSS Convention again? I doubt it.
>
> Looking farther, such a closure could literally mean the death of
> organized caving in the western U.S., where most caves are on
public land,
> and weaken it nationally. What motive is there for people to belong to
> caving groups when few if any caves are left for them to visit?
This in
> turn will leave caving increasingly to uninformed spelunkers with no
> concept of cave ethical issues, either about bats or otherwise.
And the
> progress of cave-related science, which had been flowering in recent
> years, will be severely impacted by loss of access and by reduction of
> information flow about caves as less material is published.
>
> Finally, the closure sets a bad example that may be imitated by
> other USFS regions and other agencies. If not aborted, this
closure will,
> in my opinion, destroy the relationship of decades of mutual trust
and
> cooperation between the caving community and governmental agencies
(e.g.,
> in the management of Groaning Cave since the 1970s, protection of the
> Elephant Mountain caves, and provision of information about the
effect of
> timber sales on nearby caves). Just the preliminary announcement has
> already caused widespread caver consternation not only in USFS
Region 2,
> but in New Mexico and no doubt other nearby states outside Region 2.
>
> --Donald Davis
> Fellow and Honorary Member, National Speleological Society
>
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