texascavers Digest 20 Jul 2010 10:15:05 -0000 Issue 1104

Tue, 20 Jul 2010 03:15:25 -0700 (PDT) 

texascavers Digest 20 Jul 2010 10:15:05 -0000 Issue 1104

Topics (messages 15412 through 15435):

Re: for cavers needing ride to Vermont
        15412 by: Gill Edigar

Stamps in a Cave
        15413 by: Mark Minton
        15414 by: David
        15415 by: Geary Schindel
        15416 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net

Re: tour cave question
        15417 by: Alex Sproul

Re: Princeton Tec
        15418 by: Alex Sproul
        15419 by: Geary Schindel

Hamilton Pool related
        15420 by: David
        15421 by: Joe Ranzau
        15422 by: Stefan Creaser
        15430 by: Matt Turner

Spectacular Spanish cave has most extensive collection of helictites ever found
        15423 by: Lee H. Skinner
        15428 by: mark gee

book review: Blue Spring Cave
        15424 by: Mixon Bill

Re: KISS military salute - this will make you proud!  ALSO A GREAT 
CAVING/WORKING WEEKEND.
        15425 by: Fritz Holt

Subterranean Living May Await Moon and Mars Colonists
        15426 by: Lee H. Skinner

Re: cave diving in Saudi Arabia
        15427 by: Mark Minton

Almagre, TAMS sat image
        15429 by: Albach
        15431 by: Don Cooper
        15432 by: Don Cooper
        15433 by: Rod Goke

UT Grotto meeting - July 21, 2010
        15434 by: Gary Franklin

Re: Almagre, TAMS sat image, an explanation
        15435 by: Rod Goke

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
Your day may be at hand. I'm sure that an NSS Convention ride
coordinator would be a big hit. Line up cavers with rides each year.
We could call it David's List.
--Ediger

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 2:14 PM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think I found an alternative way that I could financially afford to get
> to Vermont.
>
> I found people on Craigslist needing a ride up to the New England area.
>
> Theoretically, I could drive my car thru Baton Rouge, Louisiana to
> Huntsville, Alabama,
> to Chattanooga, Tennessee, to Roanoke, Virginia, to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,
> and to Albany, New York, and then to Vermont,
>
> and along the way; I could pick up strangers I found on Craigslist.
>
> So far, the people
> I have talked to sound like they have a weekly pass to leave their asylum
> ( I guess the asylums have internet now ).    I think one of them was a 
> homeless
> guy e-mailing me from a truck-stop.    He claimed to be a tree-hugger.
>
>
> If I make this road-trip, I could take a caver from Texas, if they were 
> willing
> to come to Houston on July 28.   I think I would leave Arcola ( south
> of Houston )
> early July 29th.
>
> Also, I could pick up other cavers along the way, if I could get the
> message out.
>
> I haven't yet found a caver bulletin board for rideshare to Vermont.
>  Is there one ?
>
> Feel free to forward this to other list-serves.
>
> David Locklear
> 281-960-0687
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- A cave in Missouri is used to store postage stamps: <http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=150&sid=2004488>. One thing that didn't ring true, though, was that the guy said it was 72 degrees in the cave. That's _way_ too warm for a normal cave in Missouri, where the temperature should be more like 55. 

Mark Minton

Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Does anybody think the gov't is storing something else in this cave,
and stamps is just a
cover for all the other stuff they are storing?    1,500 employees?
3/4 mile of passage ?

Does $ 600 million dollars worth of 44 cent stamps take up 5 million
square feet of cave ?
( How tall are the ceilings ? )    I presume passage is at least 8
feet high so then you have
something like 40 million cubic feet of storage space.

Next, calculate the volume of 1,363 million stamps per cubic foot of
storage space?   ( Presumably,  they are in sheet form in a boxes on a
pallet wrapped in plastic. )

34 million stamps per cubic foot.    That doesn't sound right.   Maybe
passage much taller
than 8 feet.   Let's say 16 feet, so then you get 17 million stamps
per cubic foot.

Maybe my math sucks.     Maybe there is more than 3/4 mile of passage?

But there could be lots of stamps worth more than 44 cents, but also
lots less than 44 cents.

If you owned a stamp worth $ 1,000 would you store it there?   Then
why should the gov't ?

Anybody else think there is something secret going on there ?

Any cavers actually seen the stamps in the cave ?

What about water dripping in from the ceiling?      Don't limestone
caves do that ?
I never been in a Missouri cave, but I heard they were wet, cold and & muddy.

Now the terrorist know where we hide our stamps.    They could flood
the cave and damage
our national economy.     Wall Street would panic and stock prices
would plummet upon receiving the news.


David Locklear

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I'm not sure that these are caves as much as large complex limestone mines.  
The companies that own the mines rent the space out for storage for all kinds 
of things and if I remember correctly they also had a fairly large office 
complex as space was cheap.  For storing critical documents, aging cheese, for 
a place to park you boat or motor home in the winter, they can't be beat.  
There are a number of underground quarries that are used for storage.  When I 
was with the State of Kentucky, we stored records, computer tapes, and other 
important stuff in a quarry south of Lexington. They also stored all kinds of 
stuff and also had a state of the art water treatment facility where they 
bottled water from a small cave entering the back of the mine.  The name of the 
mine was High Bridge and they also had a fine cave on their property.

Geary

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Stamps in a Cave

         A cave in Missouri is used to store postage stamps: 
<http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=150&sid=2004488>.  One thing 
that didn't ring true, though, was that the guy said it was 72 
degrees in the cave.  That's _way_ too warm for a normal cave in 
Missouri, where the temperature should be more like 55.

Mark Minton

Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected] 


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah. Kansas City has those limestone mines. Hardly caves.
 
T


Jul 19, 2010 07:56:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I'm not sure that these are caves as much as large complex limestone mines. The companies that own the mines rent the space out for storage for all kinds of things and if I remember correctly they also had a fairly large office complex as space was cheap. For storing critical documents, aging cheese, for a place to park you boat or motor home in the winter, they can't be beat. There are a number of underground quarries that are used for storage. When I was with the State of Kentucky, we stored records, computer tapes, and other important stuff in a quarry south of Lexington. They also stored all kinds of stuff and also had a state of the art water treatment facility where they bottled water from a small cave entering the back of the mine. The name of the mine was High Bridge and they also had a fine cave on their property.

Geary

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Stamps in a Cave

A cave in Missouri is used to store postage stamps:
. One thing
that didn't ring true, though, was that the guy said it was 72
degrees in the cave. That's _way_ too warm for a normal cave in
Missouri, where the temperature should be more like 55.

Mark Minton

Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I saw that Wyandotte Cave in Indiana was closed.  ( I believe that is a
>state owned tour cave, as opposed to a privately owned one. )

Yes, the state owns Wyandotte, but it is operated by Gordon Smith, who also owns/operates nearby Marengo Cave, and Diamond Caverns in Kentucky.  Wyandotte has been a hole in the ground to throw money in, so I'm sure Gordon was just as happy to close it (though the decision was likely the state's).  His other two caves remain open.  Gordon is also the president of the National Caves Association (NCA), the trade group for commercial caverns.

>Which of the tour caves have had bat fatalities from WNS ?

I know Endless Caverns, here in Virginia, has.  It's still open.

>Could a tourist somehow spread the virus by taking 2 cave tours in the
>same clothes?

If turons could be a vector at all, it would most likely be their shoes, as most likely have only one pair of 'hiking' boots.  But the likelihood of a turon a) being a vector at all, b) touring multiple show caves, and c) wearing the same boots for all, reduces the probability of spread to near zero.

>Are any cavers for the closing of caves that seldom have bats in them ?

As you point out above, David, it only takes one.  And yes,  among the caving community, opinions on closures run the entire spectrum.

>It seems that if none of the tour caves are going to close, what is the
>point of closing the caves that are not tour caves?     That decision
>seems to be based purely on economics.

Gee, ya think?  That fact incenses most cavers.  As does the fact that wild cave closures only keep out responsible cavers, and effectively do zilch to stop the *alleged* human transmission by the spelunkers.

Since WNS is now effectively pervasive in Virginia, the Cave Board just last week revised its policy to allow caving without decon (but with clean gear) throughout WNS-positive areas.  Cavers are cautioned not to take equipment used in a WNS area to a non-WNS area.  That's a reasonable compromise that most cavers can live with, since flashlight cavers rarely venture far from home.

>I have a feeling that WNS is not high on Obama's plate at the moment.

It likely is not on his radar at all.  But it is most definitely on the plate of the USFWS and USFS and BLM, though they are constrained by limited funding (as is virtually every gov't program) and a lack of proactive things they can do (closures are all they can think of, and fill that bill).

But there is hope on the horizon.  It is said that a 'cure' has been developed that kills the spores.  It only remains to devise a method to distribute the cure to the bats.  The cure does not result in immunity, and so will need to be pursued for some time, and its cost is not yet known. The hope is that the bats will eventually develop their own immunity, given sufficient survival time provided by this 'cure.'

Alex





--
Alex Sproul
NSS 8086RL/FE
NSS Webmaster
www.caves.org

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>It's a bit of a sad comment on the PrincetonTec in general that so many cavers are knowledgeable about failed lights that need to be returned !

In defense of P-T, I would point out that cavers are knowledgeable about light problems because they are particularly adroit at *destroying* them by using them in environments and ways that the designers never imagined.  Yet they still replace mangled lights without question.  I think that's a great comment.

Alex

--
Alex Sproul
NSS 8086RL/FE
NSS Webmaster
www.caves.org

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I agree, I've abused my PT lights and they have lasted longer than any other 
light I've owned.  They also have an excellent customer service program.

Geary

From: Alex Sproul [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 8:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Princeton Tec

>It's a bit of a sad comment on the PrincetonTec in general that so many cavers 
>are knowledgeable about failed lights that need to be returned !

In defense of P-T, I would point out that cavers are knowledgeable about light 
problems because they are particularly adroit at *destroying* them by using 
them in environments and ways that the designers never imagined.  Yet they 
still replace mangled lights without question.  I think that's a great comment.

Alex

--
Alex Sproul
NSS 8086RL/FE
NSS Webmaster
www.caves.org<http://www.caves.org>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This is post is most likely old news to the folks in Austin.

But in the new movie "Predators," there is a jungle scene where
the humans are running from the aliens, and they fall and roll
down a hill, and then off the cliff at Hamilton Pool in Austin,
and then swim to shore.    The 6 or so humans sit under the
rock-shelter there and discuss their plan of attack.


There is also another scene where they hike out of the
jungle and come to an area that resembles Pedernales
Falls, but I didn't recognize the place.    I presume it
was filmed on a ranch in the hill country.   Any body know
that spot ?

According to the link below, much of the movie was filmed on
set in Austin.

http://www.collider.com/2010/05/06/predators-set-visit-troublemaker-studios-austin-leaves-very-impressed/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
It's all about the Tax breaks!

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:07 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:

> This is post is most likely old news to the folks in Austin.
>
> But in the new movie "Predators," there is a jungle scene where
> the humans are running from the aliens, and they fall and roll
> down a hill, and then off the cliff at Hamilton Pool in Austin,
> and then swim to shore.    The 6 or so humans sit under the
> rock-shelter there and discuss their plan of attack.
>
>
> There is also another scene where they hike out of the
> jungle and come to an area that resembles Pedernales
> Falls, but I didn't recognize the place.    I presume it
> was filmed on a ranch in the hill country.   Any body know
> that spot ?
>
> According to the link below, much of the movie was filmed on
> set in Austin.
>
>
> http://www.collider.com/2010/05/06/predators-set-visit-troublemaker-studios-austin-leaves-very-impressed/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I have some friends who worked on it. I can find out if you *really* want.


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Ranzau [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Mon 7/19/2010 10:09 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Hamilton Pool related
 
It's all about the Tax breaks!

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:07 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:

> This is post is most likely old news to the folks in Austin.
>
> But in the new movie "Predators," there is a jungle scene where
> the humans are running from the aliens, and they fall and roll
> down a hill, and then off the cliff at Hamilton Pool in Austin,
> and then swim to shore.    The 6 or so humans sit under the
> rock-shelter there and discuss their plan of attack.
>
>
> There is also another scene where they hike out of the
> jungle and come to an area that resembles Pedernales
> Falls, but I didn't recognize the place.    I presume it
> was filmed on a ranch in the hill country.   Any body know
> that spot ?
>
> According to the link below, much of the movie was filmed on
> set in Austin.
>
>
> http://www.collider.com/2010/05/06/predators-set-visit-troublemaker-studios-austin-leaves-very-impressed/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
it was mckinney falls state park
 Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 





________________________________
From: David <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 10:07:05 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Hamilton Pool related

This is post is most likely old news to the folks in Austin.

But in the new movie "Predators," there is a jungle scene where
the humans are running from the aliens, and they fall and roll
down a hill, and then off the cliff at Hamilton Pool in Austin,
and then swim to shore.    The 6 or so humans sit under the
rock-shelter there and discuss their plan of attack.


There is also another scene where they hike out of the
jungle and come to an area that resembles Pedernales
Falls, but I didn't recognize the place.    I presume it
was filmed on a ranch in the hill country.  Any body know
that spot ?

According to the link below, much of the movie was filmed on
set in Austin.

http://www.collider.com/2010/05/06/predators-set-visit-troublemaker-studios-austin-leaves-very-impressed/


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--- Begin Message --- 
 Have they not heard of Caverns of Sonora?  :-)

See this story at:

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/07/06/f-el-soplao-cave-spain.html

Lee Skinner

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Its a nice cave but its not Sonora, they will have to come to Texas. I wont 
brag, I'll let them decide for themselves. See Caverns of Sonora!
Happy Caving!!




________________________________
From: Lee H. Skinner <[email protected]>
To: Cave Diggers <[email protected]>; texascavers list 
<[email protected]>; nmcaver list <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 11:29:13 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Spectacular Spanish cave has most extensive collection 
of 
helictites ever found

Have they not heard of Caverns of Sonora?  :-)

See this story at:

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/07/06/f-el-soplao-cave-spain.html

Lee Skinner

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Blue Spring Cave. Larry E. Matthews and Bill Walter. National Speleological Society, Huntsville, Alabama; 2010. ISBN softbound 978-1-879961-36-4, hardbound 978-1-879961-37-1. 8.5 by 11 inches, 340 pages. Softbound $38 (NSS members $35), hardbound $55 (NSS members $50).
Blue Spring Cave, the longest in Tennessee with over thirty-five miles of passages, is one of the few exciting finds in Tennessee since the exploration of Cumberland Caverns back in the 1950s. Long known as just a 500-foot cave, Blue Spring exploded after a tight, blowing crawl was pushed and enlarged in 1989. Most of the major passages were surveyed during the first half of the nineties, although work continues, including making a new entrance in 2001. During all this time, cavers enjoyed the hospitality and support of interested landowner Lonnie Carr. The cave is mostly horizontal, although there's a blind 150-foot pit located 4.7 miles from the entrance. Divers have penetrated a significant distance into the resurgence spring, but have not connected it to the cave so far.
As is the case with all the NSS books on the history of Tennessee caves, the authors should really be considered editors, as most of the text is quoted. In this case, there are some reports previously published, but also a lot of new material written for the book by many participants in the exploration. Sometimes more than one person has written about the same trip, giving different perspectives. Almost every page contains a large black-and-white photograph, generally well printed. Most are very nice photos taken recently by Bob Biddix; some by Elliot Stahl are also praiseworthy. There is a twenty-page section of color photographs. I prefer the black-and-whites, because the color balance in many of the color photos is suspicious. There is a small- scale map of the cave spread over two pages, and a few detail maps. I wish there'd been more of the latter and that more place names mentioned in the text, including landmark station numbers, had been put on them. The book ends with a glossary, a chronology, a gazetteer, and an index.
It's nice to be able to recommend an NSS book without many reservations for a change. 
--Bill Mixon
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You can live down anything but a good reputation.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This 5+ minute video may be the best thing you see on your monitor this week. 
It is a great tribute and morale builder for the young men and women who 
sacrifice to make our way of life, including caving, possible. It is not the 
patriotic same old, same old you are accustomed to seeing.

Fritz



________________________________





This is worth watching...hard to believe this was one of the "KISS" band 
members....He does a lot of work for the services.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MtdIO23MKM

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
 Lava tube explorers are space pioneers!

http://news.discovery.com/space/subterranean-living-may-await-moon-and-mars-colonists.html

Lee Skinner

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Interesting that there did not seem to be a dive line in any of the underwater photos... 

Mark Minton

At 04:32 PM 7/17/2010, Mixon Bill wrote:

This from John Pint:

Hello from Saudicaves!
We have just received a 12-minute video of a visit to Ain Hit (Al- Heet, Ain Hith) cave, 
one of the few places in the world where you can go cave diving in the
desert -- and a landmark
in  the history both of Saudi Arabia and of the oil industry. Go to:
http://www.saudicaves.com/hitvideo/index.html  or click below.

--Mixon


Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Was wondering if anybody had been to this area (nw of aldama / zacaton ). Most strange image from Google Maps at: 23.108505,-98.333669 - right side of road - looks like a pond from on high but zoom in shows very structure - was hoping somebody knew what it was. 

Thanks,

-Robert

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Wow, that's pretty weird!
I think it looks like the exposed layer of the earth's early semiconductor
age.

-WaV

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Albach <[email protected]> wrote:

> Was wondering if anybody had been to this area (nw of aldama / zacaton ).
> Most strange image from Google Maps at:
> 23.108505,-98.333669 - right side of road - looks like a pond from on high
> but zoom in shows very structure - was hoping somebody knew what it was.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Robert
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
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>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
And here's another one - other side of the road.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=23.108505,-98.333669&sll=30.221183,-97.733828&sspn=0.01322,0.021865&ie=UTF8&ll=23.109544,-98.346815&spn=0.001759,0.002733&t=h&z=19

Probably the remains of an ancient, now hidden, UFO base.

-WaV

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Albach <[email protected]> wrote:

> Was wondering if anybody had been to this area (nw of aldama / zacaton ).
> Most strange image from Google Maps at:
> 23.108505,-98.333669 - right side of road - looks like a pond from on high
> but zoom in shows very structure - was hoping somebody knew what it was.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Robert
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
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>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Both very interesting. Too bad Google Street View doesn't work there. Hey, I 
wonder if Google takes request about where to send its Street View cameras 
next. Do they have a 4WD version of that camera car? Maybe if we all start an 
email campaign...  ;-)

Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Cooper <[email protected]>
>Sent: Jul 20, 2010 1:52 AM
>To: Albach <[email protected]>
>Cc: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Almagre, TAMS sat image
>
>And here's another one - other side of the road.
>
>http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=23.108505,-98.333669&sll=30.221183,-97.733828&sspn=0.01322,0.021865&ie=UTF8&ll=23.109544,-98.346815&spn=0.001759,0.002733&t=h&z=19
>
>Probably the remains of an ancient, now hidden, UFO base.
>
>-WaV
>
>On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Albach <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Was wondering if anybody had been to this area (nw of aldama / zacaton ).
>> Most strange image from Google Maps at:
>> 23.108505,-98.333669 - right side of road - looks like a pond from on high
>> but zoom in shows very structure - was hoping somebody knew what it was.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Underground Texas Grotto meeting July 21, 2010 www.utgrotto.org

The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M.

University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall

http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html



Dr. Ann Scott and Don Arburn will present “Continued Adventures in Belize,
2010”   Ann and Don have been involved in numerous Archaeologic trips to
Belize.  Come check out their ongoing adventures to some caves that are rich
in ancient history and wicked traditions as well as the added local
folklore.  Come out to also see projects that the UT Grotto members have
been involved.  UT Grotto meetings are caver fellowship events, and not the
boring business meetings that you work to avoid.

For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see the
website. All of our information is available through our link including
officer contact info, trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and
posting links to beginner trips or vertical rope training.

Before the meeting about 6:00, Some of us may meet at Sao Paulo
www.saopaulos.net for happy hour, then afterward about 9:30 we go for
burgers and beer at Posse East  www.posseeast.com  This is also the best
area for legal parking.

The UT Grotto needs you, Yes you, the caver with photos and a story to share
about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really
cool.  Contact
me if you are willing and able to present a 20 -25 minute talk.

Gary Franklin - UT Grotto Vice Chair and Program Organizer

[email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is my best guess at a serious explanation for what's in those satellite 
photos. Admittedly, it is only a slightly educated guess, but it seems 
plausible, and if anyone has a more likely explanation, I'd like to hear it.

Suppose you were a farmer/rancher in an area with lots of undeveloped land, and 
you would like to grow crops on a relatively small portion of that land. You 
would like to pick an area likely to have adequate ground water for the crops, 
even during the dry season, without you having to invest in an expensive 
irrigation system. You can't afford the initial equipment and drilling costs or 
the ongoing energy costs of pumping large quantities of irrigation water from 
wells. You have no nearby river or large lake to supply irrigation water. Most 
of the available land is forest or grassland, where, without irrigation, the 
rainfall might or might not be sufficient for the crops you'd like to grow. 
You'd be gambling on the weather if you planted crops there.

Your land does, however, include a couple of natural ponds, which collect water 
to a modest depth during rains and which dwindle to a very shallow depth or 
become little more than mud holes during dry weather. Even during very dry 
times, however, these ponds still contain enough water to keep the soil moist 
on the pond bottoms. In this case, you might convert these ponds into good 
places for growing crops simply by rearranging the soil on the pond bottoms. 
You dig a crisscrossed array of canal-like ditches and pile up the soil between 
these ditches to form a number of small rectangular islands, where you plant 
your crops. During rainy times, the ditches fill with water, but the islands 
remain high enough to keep the crops from flooding. During dry times, the water 
level drops in the ditches, but there is still enough water in the soil to 
provide adequate moisture to the roots of your crops. From the air or a 
satellite view, you still see the natural irregular outlines of the ponds, but 
inside each pond, you now see a crisscrossed network of canals and rectangular 
islands. These islands normally are green with crops, and the canals might or 
might not contain visible water, depending on how much rain has fallen lately.

I don't claim to be any expert on this, but from what I've heard and read from 
time to time, I believe that archeological evidence has been found indicating 
that agricultural techniques similar to this were used for a very long time 
(many hundreds or even thousands of years) by native people in portions of 
South America, Central America, and Mexico. Perhaps some of you archeologists 
out there can provide better information about traditional agricultural 
techniques and can give us your thoughts about whether this explanation of the 
satellite photos makes sense or is just all wet.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Cooper <[email protected]>
>Sent: Jul 20, 2010 1:52 AM
>To: Albach <[email protected]>
>Cc: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Almagre, TAMS sat image
>
>And here's another one - other side of the road.
>
>http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=23.108505,-98.333669&sll=30.221183,-97.733828&sspn=0.01322,0.021865&ie=UTF8&ll=23.109544,-98.346815&spn=0.001759,0.002733&t=h&z=19
>
>Probably the remains of an ancient, now hidden, UFO base.
>
>-WaV
>
>On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Albach <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Was wondering if anybody had been to this area (nw of aldama / zacaton ).
>> Most strange image from Google Maps at:
>> 23.108505,-98.333669 - right side of road - looks like a pond from on high
>> but zoom in shows very structure - was hoping somebody knew what it was.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>>
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