texascavers Digest 25 Apr 2010 08:27:49 -0000 Issue 1035 Topics (messages 14543 through 14553):
Re: stalagtite ?
14543 by: George Veni
14544 by: Bill Bentley
speluncean
14545 by: Mixon Bill
14549 by: Louise Power
14552 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
Re: Spelunker or Caver?
14546 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
14547 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
a new LED headlamp
14548 by: David
Re: debate about Mexico travel safety
14550 by: David
14551 by: Rod Goke
caver band trivia
14553 by: David
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--- Begin Message ---Actually, the prefix "speleo" is Greek, hence "spelean," "speleology," "speleologist," etc. The Latin speakers converted it to "spelunk" in an obvious attempt to generate discord and debate among cavers. George -----Original Message----- From: Jon Cradit [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 6:47 AM To: 'George Veni'; 'Cavers Texas' Subject: RE: [Texascavers] stalagtite ? Greek, Greek, Greek Why is it always about the Greek? You would think they invented spelunking or maybe wrote the book. And they STILL keep popping up, out of caves or would that be spelunks. Jon -----Original Message----- From: George Veni [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 10:38 AM To: 'Cavers Texas' Subject: RE: [Texascavers] stalagtite ? -----Original Message----- From: David [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:17 AM To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] stalagtite ? I have noticed recently that lots of web-sites are using the term "stalagtite." ... I wish the correct spelling were "stalagtite." That would be logical. ------------------------------------------- David, The spelling of stalactite and stalagmite is in fact very logical. The fact that it isn't apparent to many is the price paid when we adopt words from other languages, in this case, Greek. In Greek, the prefix "stalac" mean "dripping" or "to drip," which is how stalactites forms, by dripping. The prefix "stalag" means "dripped" or 'dripped on," which is how stalagmites form, by being dripped on. George --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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--- Begin Message --- And I would say it was most sucessful in generating this multi year long debate...Bill----- Original Message ----- From: "George Veni" <[email protected]>To: "'Cavers Texas'" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] stalagtite ?Actually, the prefix "speleo" is Greek, hence "spelean," "speleology," "speleologist," etc. The Latin speakers converted it to "spelunk" in an obvious attempt to generate discord and debate among cavers. George -----Original Message----- From: Jon Cradit [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 6:47 AM To: 'George Veni'; 'Cavers Texas' Subject: RE: [Texascavers] stalagtite ? Greek, Greek, Greek Why is it always about the Greek? You would think they invented spelunking or maybe wrote the book. And they STILL keep popping up, out of caves or would that be spelunks. Jon -----Original Message----- From: George Veni [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 10:38 AM To: 'Cavers Texas' Subject: RE: [Texascavers] stalagtite ? -----Original Message----- From: David [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:17 AM To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] stalagtite ? I have noticed recently that lots of web-sites are using the term "stalagtite." ... I wish the correct spelling were "stalagtite." That would be logical. ------------------------------------------- David,The spelling of stalactite and stalagmite is in fact very logical. The factthat it isn't apparent to many is the price paid when we adopt words from other languages, in this case, Greek. In Greek, the prefix "stalac" mean "dripping" or "to drip," which is how stalactites forms, by dripping. The prefix "stalag" means "dripped" or 'dripped on," which is how stalagmites form, by being dripped on. George --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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--- Begin Message --- One of the less seen words derived from speleo, spelunk, etc. is speluncean. The OED says it is rare and quotes one instance from 1803. It is perhaps known best (if at all) for the famous article "The Case of the Speluncean Explorers" in the Harvard Law Review in 1949, a ficticious set of Supreme Court decisions. It was reprinted in 1998 as part of a book by Peter Suber containing nine new opinions on the same imaginary case. It is still in print. Not exactly a caving book, but interesting insights into legal theories. Probably a student of the Supreme Court in 1949 or 1998 would be able to identify which real justices are parodied in each opinion in the book.--Mixon----------------------------------------I am walking down the street with Leonardo da Vinci. He says, "It is indeed wonderful what your science has created. You must explain to me how everything works." That's when I wake up.---------------------------------------- You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: [email protected] AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
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--- Begin Message ---Hi Bill, For those who might wish to look into this a little further, they might want to check out the following links: http://www.nullapoena.de/stud/explorers.html Lon Fuller’s original article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Speluncean_Explorers Wiki’s synopsis of the case. http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/cse.htm Peter Suber’s information on his followup with nine new opinions. I was fascinated just reading part of Fuller's original, so I think I'll run it off and read the whole thing. Who knows, the subject may really come up some time. Louise > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:30:40 -0500 > Subject: [Texascavers] speluncean > > One of the less seen words derived from speleo, spelunk, etc. is > speluncean. The OED says it is rare and quotes one instance from 1803. > It is perhaps known best (if at all) for the famous article "The Case > of the Speluncean Explorers" in the Harvard Law Review in 1949, a > ficticious set of Supreme Court decisions. It was reprinted in 1998 as > part of a book by Peter Suber containing nine new opinions on the same > imaginary case. It is still in print. Not exactly a caving book, but > interesting insights into legal theories. Probably a student of the > Supreme Court in 1949 or 1998 would be able to identify which real > justices are parodied in each opinion in the book.--Mixon > ---------------------------------------- > I am walking down the street with Leonardo da Vinci. He says, "It is > indeed wonderful what your science has created. You must explain to me > how everything works." That's when I wake up. > ---------------------------------------- > You may "reply" to the address this message > came from, but for long-term use, save: > Personal: [email protected] > AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >
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For those who might wish to look into this a little further, they might want to check out the following links:
http://www.nullapoena.de/stud/explorers.html
Lon Fuller’s original article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Speluncean_Explorers
Wiki’s synopsis of the case.
http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/cse.htm
Peter Suber’s information on his followup with nine new opinions.
I was fascinated just reading part of Fuller's original, so I think I'll run it off and read the whole thing. Who knows, the subject may really come up some time.
Louise
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> List-Post: [email protected] Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:30:40 -0500
> Subject: [Texascavers] speluncean
>
> One of the less seen words derived from speleo, spelunk, etc. is
> speluncean. The OED says it is rare and quotes one instance from 1803.
> It is perhaps known best (if at all) for the famous article "The Case
> of the Speluncean Explorers" in the Harvard Law Review in 1949, a
> ficticious set of Supreme Court decisions. It was reprinted in 1998 as
> part of a book by Peter Suber containing nine new opinions on the same
> imaginary case. It is still in print. Not exactly a caving book, but
> interesting insights into legal theories. Probably a student of the
> Supreme Court in 1949 or 1998 would be able to identify which real
> justices are parodied in each opinion in the book.--Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> I am walking down the street with Leonardo da Vinci. He says, "It is
> indeed wonderful what your science has created. You must explain to me
> how everything works." That's when I wake up.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
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--- Begin Message ---After a few beers pick your favorite and say "it" ten times ... ~F~ > > I mainly dislike the word "spelunker" because it's cumbersome, hard to > say, and just sounds ugly compared to the word "caver." It wasn't > derogatory when I started cave in tin the early 90's, either -- that > seems to have become a prevalent sentiment in just he last 190 years > or so -- I just don't like saying it. Caver is simpler and more > descriptive, even to the general public that never thinks about caves. > I think a person who'd never heard either word would more easily > understand caver than spelunker, so it's what I use in conversation > when people ask me what the bat sticker means. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 11:16 PM, Carl Kunath wrote: > Wow! > > This is a subject that never seems to die. My perspective is strictly > that of a Texas caver for nearly 50 years and it may be that regional > differences are significant. > > All the 1950s and 1960s Texas cavers that Iassociated with were happy > to be called spelunkers. There was absolutely NO stigma associated > with the term. Notice on page 156 of50 Years of Texas Cavingthere is a > picture of the original Texas Region of the National Speleological > reflective sticker that many of that era proudly affixed to their > caving headgear. On it, the word "spelunkers" appears in large letters > -- not as an afterthought. > > In my experience with cave owners (and the general public) in Texas, > they often used the term "spelunkers" spontaneously. As in, "Oh, yeah, > those spelunkers from San Antonio were here last year." If we > introduced the less formal term "caver" they were just as happy to go > along with that as well and usually called us cavers more often than > spelunkers. > > Within our fraternity, the term "caver" is used far more often than > "spelunker" as matter of convenience and as an offshoot of the verb > "caving." Some years back when this first became topic, I checked with > Bill Russell and found that his views were exactly the same as mine. > > In the last few years I have heard (mostly newbie) cavers use the > expression, " Cavers rescue spelunkers." Perhaps it makes them somehow > feel superior. What a load of horse s**t! > > Language is alive and ever-changing so, in time,words mean what we > choose to have them mean. Forget all the Latin roots. If you think > "spelunker" sounds funny and is less heroic than "caver," I can't hope > to change your mind but history argues against you. > > ===Carl Kunath > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:Rod Goke > To:David;Cavers Texas > Sent:Tuesday, April 20, 2010 10:14 PM > Subject:Re: [Texascavers] spelunker again, etymology & folklore > > It's really not surprising that media people and other non-cavers tend > to think that "spelunker" is a technical term for "caver". They hear > cavers refer to the scientific study of caves as "speleology" and to > the scientists who do it as "speleologists". Similarly, they notice > that cavers often favor the term "speleological" when naming their > official organizations (NSS, TSA, TSS, etc.). Since "spelunker" more > closely resembles these technical sounding terms than does the word > "caver", people outside the caving community naturally assume that > "spelunker" is the more technical, formal, and preferred term and that > "caver" is merely an informal slang word, perhaps with less respectful > connotations. Little do they know that most cavers prefer not to be > called spelunkers. > > The reason for this misunderstanding between cavers and the outside > world is that, for decades, cavers have been too embarrassed to > explain the etymology of "spelunker" and how it differs from that of > all the technical sounding speleo-whatever words. Cavers like words > beginning with "speleo" because this prefix has a long history of > favorable associations with caves and caving. In contrast, words > beginning with "spelunk" have less favorable connotations, because > "speeeeelunk" is the sound made by a caver falling down a pit and > splattering onto the floor below. Hence, "spelunking" is the act of > making this sound, and a "spelunker" is a caver who does it, so no > self respecting caver would ever want to become known as a spelunker! > Embarrassment over this etymology of "spelunker" not only has made > cavers reluctant to explain it to the outside world, but it also has > made a lot of old time cavers reluctant to explain it to subsequent > generations. Consequently, all that was effectively passed down > through the generations was a seemingly inexplicable aversion to the > term, leading to a lot of vague hand waving and speculation among > current cavers about why none of them like to be called "spelunkers". > > That, essentially, is the explanation I heard from a few older cavers > back when I started caving about 40 years ago, and I haven't heard a > better one since. So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it, at > least, until I hear someone concoct a better one. ;) > > Rod > > > > >
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--- Begin Message ---After a few beers pick your favorite and say "it" ten times ... ~F~ > > I mainly dislike the word "spelunker" because it's cumbersome, hard to > say, and just sounds ugly compared to the word "caver." It wasn't > derogatory when I started cave in tin the early 90's, either -- that > seems to have become a prevalent sentiment in just he last 190 years > or so -- I just don't like saying it. Caver is simpler and more > descriptive, even to the general public that never thinks about caves. > I think a person who'd never heard either word would more easily > understand caver than spelunker, so it's what I use in conversation > when people ask me what the bat sticker means. > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 11:16 PM, Carl Kunath wrote: > Wow! > > This is a subject that never seems to die. My perspective is strictly > that of a Texas caver for nearly 50 years and it may be that regional > differences are significant. > > All the 1950s and 1960s Texas cavers that Iassociated with were happy > to be called spelunkers. There was absolutely NO stigma associated > with the term. Notice on page 156 of50 Years of Texas Cavingthere is a > picture of the original Texas Region of the National Speleological > reflective sticker that many of that era proudly affixed to their > caving headgear. On it, the word "spelunkers" appears in large letters > -- not as an afterthought. > > In my experience with cave owners (and the general public) in Texas, > they often used the term "spelunkers" spontaneously. As in, "Oh, yeah, > those spelunkers from San Antonio were here last year." If we > introduced the less formal term "caver" they were just as happy to go > along with that as well and usually called us cavers more often than > spelunkers. > > Within our fraternity, the term "caver" is used far more often than > "spelunker" as matter of convenience and as an offshoot of the verb > "caving." Some years back when this first became topic, I checked with > Bill Russell and found that his views were exactly the same as mine. > > In the last few years I have heard (mostly newbie) cavers use the > expression, " Cavers rescue spelunkers." Perhaps it makes them somehow > feel superior. What a load of horse s**t! > > Language is alive and ever-changing so, in time,words mean what we > choose to have them mean. Forget all the Latin roots. If you think > "spelunker" sounds funny and is less heroic than "caver," I can't hope > to change your mind but history argues against you. > > ===Carl Kunath > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:Rod Goke > To:David;Cavers Texas > Sent:Tuesday, April 20, 2010 10:14 PM > Subject:Re: [Texascavers] spelunker again, etymology & folklore > > It's really not surprising that media people and other non-cavers tend > to think that "spelunker" is a technical term for "caver". They hear > cavers refer to the scientific study of caves as "speleology" and to > the scientists who do it as "speleologists". Similarly, they notice > that cavers often favor the term "speleological" when naming their > official organizations (NSS, TSA, TSS, etc.). Since "spelunker" more > closely resembles these technical sounding terms than does the word > "caver", people outside the caving community naturally assume that > "spelunker" is the more technical, formal, and preferred term and that > "caver" is merely an informal slang word, perhaps with less respectful > connotations. Little do they know that most cavers prefer not to be > called spelunkers. > > The reason for this misunderstanding between cavers and the outside > world is that, for decades, cavers have been too embarrassed to > explain the etymology of "spelunker" and how it differs from that of > all the technical sounding speleo-whatever words. Cavers like words > beginning with "speleo" because this prefix has a long history of > favorable associations with caves and caving. In contrast, words > beginning with "spelunk" have less favorable connotations, because > "speeeeelunk" is the sound made by a caver falling down a pit and > splattering onto the floor below. Hence, "spelunking" is the act of > making this sound, and a "spelunker" is a caver who does it, so no > self respecting caver would ever want to become known as a spelunker! > Embarrassment over this etymology of "spelunker" not only has made > cavers reluctant to explain it to the outside world, but it also has > made a lot of old time cavers reluctant to explain it to subsequent > generations. Consequently, all that was effectively passed down > through the generations was a seemingly inexplicable aversion to the > term, leading to a lot of vague hand waving and speculation among > current cavers about why none of them like to be called "spelunkers". > > That, essentially, is the explanation I heard from a few older cavers > back when I started caving about 40 years ago, and I haven't heard a > better one since. So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it, at > least, until I hear someone concoct a better one. ;) > > Rod > > > > >
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--- Begin Message ---Here is a promising looking headlamp: http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2100_355542186 http://www.batteryjunction.com/fenix-hp15--headlamp.html That is the Fenix HP15. Fenix is also coming out with a brighter version that uses 4 AA batteries, called the HP10. http://w8p2fa.blu.livefilestore.com/y1plxMg-3elwRXPoUtoZQuLy0CgTYBg-aLk-lXAasllJNIgh8DQPv1oWipKZkFqnZROH3ZBy_BifeTDT-wPBQRHsBV0-32DTfEd/FenixHP102.jpg Here is a post by someone claiming they already bought one: http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1809245 David Locklear caver in Fort Bend county
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--- Begin Message ---The Houston Chronicle released a database of 232 murders in Mexico that they claim were of citizens of the U.S.A. http://www.chron.com/databases/mexicomurders If this list is accurate, and complete ( which I doubt it is ), it seems worth pointing out that 95 percent of the victims were Hispanic. One of the 10 or so Anglos, was with a hispanic that was murdered. And one Anglo was killed in a barfight over a woman. I am not making a racist comment, but only to point out that these statistics show an Anglo is relatively safe in Mexico. I guess you could say the same statement about Asians, or Blacks or others. It only goes back 7 years, but that may be to emphasize the recent violence. The only American caver I have ever heard of having been robbed, was by a taxi driver or the transit police ( los pinches transitos ) in Mexico City back in the 80's. http://www.facebook.com/pages/x-los-que-odian-a-los-pinches-transitos-ratas-/327127326829 David Locklear caver in Fort Bend County
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--- Begin Message ---David, The statistics you cite indicate that most of the U.S. citizens murdered in Mexico during the last 7 years were Hispanic and that relatively few were Anglos, but does this really imply that Anglo Americans are safer than Hispanic Americans when traveling in Mexico, or does it simply mean that most of the U.S. citizens traveling in Mexico are Hispanic? The latter does seem plausible, considering the large number of Hispanic Americans who live near the Mexican border, who speak Spanish, and who have family or business ties in Mexico. It's easy to see why Hispanic Americans in that situation might spend a lot more time in Mexico than would most other Americans, so it would not be surprising if a large portion of the U.S. citizens in Mexico at any given time are Hispanic. Also, many of the Anglo Americans traveling in Mexico might be vacationers from many parts of the U.S. who seldom go anywhere in Mexico other than the specific tourist oriented resort areas they travel there to visit, so their experiences might not tell us much about the safety of traveling the way American cavers typically do in Mexico. Without some additional statistics about what categories of Americans are traveling in Mexico and what kinds of travel they are doing there, the murder statistics you cite really don't tell us much about what racial or ethnic categories of Americans are safer than others when traveling there. Rod -----Original Message----- >From: David <[email protected]> >Sent: Apr 23, 2010 12:12 AM >To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]> >Subject: [Texascavers] Re: debate about Mexico travel safety > >The Houston Chronicle released a database of 232 murders in Mexico that they >claim were of citizens of the U.S.A. > >http://www.chron.com/databases/mexicomurders > >If this list is accurate, and complete ( which I doubt it is ), it >seems worth pointing out that 95 percent of >the victims were Hispanic. One of the 10 or so Anglos, was with a >hispanic that >was murdered. And one Anglo was killed in a barfight over a woman. > >I am not making a racist comment, but only to point out that these >statistics show >an Anglo is relatively safe in Mexico. I guess you could say the >same statement >about Asians, or Blacks or others. > >It only goes back 7 years, but that may be to emphasize the recent >violence. > >The only American caver I have ever heard of having been robbed, was by a taxi >driver or the transit police ( los pinches transitos ) in Mexico City >back in the 80's. > >http://www.facebook.com/pages/x-los-que-odian-a-los-pinches-transitos-ratas-/327127326829 > >David Locklear >caver in Fort Bend County > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Visit our website: http://texascavers.com >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >
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--- Begin Message ---I don't know if the Terminal Siphons have any videos on the web. But just last month, somebody posted a Whiskey Brisket video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDoP7e4qAQo&feature=related Their guitar player is awesome and the lady on the tambourines is amazing. Can anybody guess who they are? Hint: They were at ICS and at least one TCR.
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