texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 16:31:03 -0000 Issue 1022

Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:31:11 -0700 (PDT) 

texascavers Digest 8 Apr 2010 16:31:03 -0000 Issue 1022

Topics (messages 14376 through 14388):

a caving video
        14376 by: David
        14380 by: Josh Rubinstein

Unimog on e-Bay
        14377 by: David
        14378 by: Rod Goke
        14379 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net

Re: Mexican Travel
        14381 by: Rod Goke
        14382 by: Rod Goke
        14386 by: Fritz Holt
        14388 by: Bruce Anderson

a rigging question ?
        14383 by: David
        14385 by: Fofo
        14387 by: Rod Goke

the mine rescue
        14384 by: David

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a caving video made about 2 weeks ago.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWU1yDkbe7w

It shows a newly discovered cave passage in southern
Indiana.

These cavers have been putting caving videos on YouTube
for at least 4 years.

Note the caver with the Stenlight, and the back-up ceiling
burner, and the 2 side-mounted smaller lights.   That is
a nice set-up for a cold wet cave.   I think that is Ty Spatta.

It looks like 2 of the cavers are using walking sticks, but the yellow one
is actually a big crow bar.

2 of the cavers are wearing cotton.

Note how in one scene, a caver above helps the caver below with his
pack, while the caver is climbing up thru a tight spot.   I like that.

Note they had to lug a heavy sledge hammer all the way
to the lead.

It is a good video, considering it was a survey trip, and a cold
wet cave with a lot of crawling.

Sometimes I wish I was born and raised in southern Indiana.

David Locklear

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
David,

Thanks for turning us on to a great video.

They are wearing wetsuits.  The coveralls, cotton or otherwise, are used to
protect the suit.

Josh

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:44 AM, David <dlocklea...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here is a caving video made about 2 weeks ago.
>
>    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWU1yDkbe7w
>
> It shows a newly discovered cave passage in southern
> Indiana.
>
> These cavers have been putting caving videos on YouTube
> for at least 4 years.
>
> Note the caver with the Stenlight, and the back-up ceiling
> burner, and the 2 side-mounted smaller lights.   That is
> a nice set-up for a cold wet cave.   I think that is Ty Spatta.
>
> It looks like 2 of the cavers are using walking sticks, but the yellow one
> is actually a big crow bar.
>
> 2 of the cavers are wearing cotton.
>
> Note how in one scene, a caver above helps the caver below with his
> pack, while the caver is climbing up thru a tight spot.   I like that.
>
> Note they had to lug a heavy sledge hammer all the way
> to the lead.
>
> It is a good video, considering it was a survey trip, and a cold
> wet cave with a lot of crawling.
>
> Sometimes I wish I was born and raised in southern Indiana.
>
> David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36

Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
What is all that plumbing (valves, black hoses, etc.) inside the camper?


-----Original Message-----
>From: David <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:17 AM
>To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36
>
>Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hydraulic lines for the house jacks.

T


Apr 8, 2010 05:12:26 AM, rod.g...@ieee.org wrote:
What is all that plumbing (valves, black hoses, etc.) inside the camper?


-----Original Message-----
>From: David
>Sent: Apr 8, 2010 1:17 AM
>To: Cavers Texas
>Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36
>
>Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gill might be right about most cavers not having much the Zetas would want when they are looking for robbery victims; but according to Geary Schindel's message April 6, the Zetas are now looking for Americans they can publicly torture and kill as a show of defiance. You don't have to have much in the way of possessions to be vulnerable to torture and death.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: flea56
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 3:02 PM
To: Gill Edigar
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Mexican Travel

The advice Gil gives comes from the man who was shot rafting. Lightning may not strike twice though.

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
 
I was in the border town of Reynosa for 19 hours yesterday.   

I was down there on Thursday and was told that both the old Reynosa bridge and the Pharr bridge were closed for a few hours on Tuesday or Wednesday while the street department cleaned up some blood and brass following a little dispute. It didn't happen at the bridges but in a colonia that lies sorta in between the two, so they didn't want people turistaing around in the area 'til the fracas settled down.  

At any rate, we are all small fish in a big ocean. Most of us don't have anything the Zetas want--they have more money, more drugs, more cars & pickups, and more big guns than all cavers put together. There's always a chance that we could encounter some of them by accident--just like getting struck by lightening, run over by a semi, or becoming voluntarily victims of errant fear mongers. You're probably in no more danger crossing the Pharr bridge than watching the news on Fox cable.
--Ediger


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.

From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do so.

The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration, especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Fritz Holt
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM
To: "'a...@gluesenkamp.com'" , 'Geary Schindel' , "Texascavers@texascavers.com"
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

Well, I have had my three score and ten plus five but want a few more. If I see them coming first, maybe I can hide in the bushes and hope I don’t fart until they’re gone. That would be a preview of things to come. What is the old deer/elk hunters line? “I thought I heard an old bull snort”.

 

F.

 

From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:47 AM
To: 'Geary Schindel'; Texascavers@texascavers.com; Fritz Holt
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

 

Uhm, Fritz?  If you encounter Zetas, RUN.  They are better armed than all of us combined.  Just remember those dove hunters who got hassled last year.  They all had guns too but nothing like the gear the bad guys had.  This whole Mexican border violence thing makes me wonder:

How's the caving in Canada these days?

 

Andy

 


Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Tue, 4/6/10, Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com> wrote:


From: Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com>
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
To: "'Geary Schindel'" <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>, "Texascavers@texascavers.com" <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
Cc: "'Don Arburn'" <donarb...@mac.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 11:33 AM

Thanks, Geary.

 

I’m sure a few hard core cavers will still travel to “safe” caving areas in Mexico but if I were into the great caves in Mexico , I would not be one of them.

 

I trust that responsible cavers and citizens visiting Deep and Punkin are allowed to be armed during their visit, “just in case”.

The border patrol check point is located on my good friend’s 8,000 acre deer lease where I dove hunt each year and is eleven miles WSW of Carta Valley. I will be armed come September 1st.

 

Geezer who wants to remain one.

 

 

 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Rod,

Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in the 
use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can't win them all but 
you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from the 
beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged perps 
seem to like groups of potential victims.

Geezer

________________________________
From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
To: Fritz Holt; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com'; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain 
competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. 
Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, 
otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile 
dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may 
be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more 
than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most 
effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking 
or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any 
attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence 
and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.

>From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by 
>religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they 
>are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They 
>are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards 
>their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do 
>so.

The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere 
with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In 
principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have 
to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we 
cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide 
to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare 
appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain 
parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration, 
especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing 
the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture 
and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the 
alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we 
give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.

Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Fritz Holt
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM
To: "'a...@gluesenkamp.com'" , 'Geary Schindel' , "Texascavers@texascavers.com"
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel


Well, I have had my three score and ten plus five but want a few more. If I see 
them coming first, maybe I can hide in the bushes and hope I don't fart until 
they're gone. That would be a preview of things to come. What is the old 
deer/elk hunters line? "I thought I heard an old bull snort".

F.

________________________________
From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:47 AM
To: 'Geary Schindel'; Texascavers@texascavers.com; Fritz Holt
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

Uhm, Fritz?  If you encounter Zetas, RUN.  They are better armed than all of us 
combined.  Just remember those dove hunters who got hassled last year.  They 
all had guns too but nothing like the gear the bad guys had.  This whole 
Mexican border violence thing makes me wonder:
How's the caving in Canada these days?

Andy


Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Tue, 4/6/10, Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com> wrote:

From: Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com>
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
To: "'Geary Schindel'" <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>, 
"Texascavers@texascavers.com" <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
Cc: "'Don Arburn'" <donarb...@mac.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 11:33 AM
Thanks, Geary.

I'm sure a few hard core cavers will still travel to "safe" caving areas in 
Mexico but if I were into the great caves in Mexico , I would not be one of 
them.

I trust that responsible cavers and citizens visiting Deep and Punkin are 
allowed to be armed during their visit, "just in case".
The border patrol check point is located on my good friend's 8,000 acre deer 
lease where I dove hunt each year and is eleven miles WSW of Carta Valley. I 
will be armed come September 1st.

Geezer who wants to remain one.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I live in McAllen and our house sits about 14 miles from Mexico.  I still do a 
lot of business in Mexico on a regular basis.  With all of this said the only 
border town that I have been comfortable in the past year was Mexicali.  Of 
course now they have had an earthquake.  I have been through several minor ones 
there.  Actually friends of mine tell me that the damage was not that severe.

Anyhow back to the point, things have deteriorated badly in the Texas valley 
along the border.  If you come across any of the Narcos, you can figure that 
they are probably better armed than you are going to be.  That said, I do carry 
as I have decided I will not go down without a fight.  Obviously while in 
Mexico I would not be carrying anything unless you want to see the inside of a 
Mexican jail.  Not pretty......  In the past week there have been about 30 
killed along the Rio Grand Valley border.  While most were involved in the drug 
business not all were.  There were a couple of kids killed over by Falcon Lake 
caught in the cross fire.

The problem is that bullets just fly.  If you get caught in the cross fire or 
are behind the line of fire, you are in real danger.  If you are driving a Ford 
F-250 or a Suburban, you are in real danger as they are the Narcos favorite 
vehicles.  For about 5 or 6 weeks now every night on the local news there is 
something about killings, kidnapping or theft that has to do with the border 
drug business.  Tell anyone around here that there is not yet spill over into 
the US and they will know that you are full of it.  

My mode of operation is to always be fully aware of my surroundings whether in 
Mexico or the US.  In the US, I am always armed either on my person or in my 
truck.  Driving in and out of the valley is also a concern.  As long as you are 
moving it is no problem.  If you have car trouble you are SOL between the 
border and George West.  There is plenty of drugs and people movement through 
this area.

I guess there are some in our community that feel guns are not necessary.  They 
probably are not if you never come across a problem.  I just do not feel that I 
am going down without a fight.  Rest assured if you come across some of the 
Naros on this side of the border you are in serious trouble and are in great 
jeopardy of being killed.  They just do not care.

Bruce 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Fritz Holt 
  To: 'Rod Goke' ; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com' ; 'Geary Schindel' ; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:47 AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel


   

  Rod, 

   

  Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in the 
use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can't win them all but 
you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from the 
beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged perps 
seem to like groups of potential victims.  

   

  Geezer

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
  To: Fritz Holt; 'a...@gluesenkamp.com'; 'Geary Schindel'; 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
  Cc: 'Don Arburn'
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

   

  In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain 
competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished. 
Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators, 
otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile 
dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.

   

  Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may 
be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more 
than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most 
effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking 
or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any 
attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence 
and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.

   

  From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by 
religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they 
are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They 
are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards 
their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do so.

   

  The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere 
with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In 
principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have 
to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we 
cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide 
to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare 
appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain 
parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration, 
especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing 
the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture 
and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the 
alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we 
give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.

   

  Rod

  -----Original Message----- 
  From: Fritz Holt 
  Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM 
  To: "'a...@gluesenkamp.com'" , 'Geary Schindel' , 
"Texascavers@texascavers.com" 
  Cc: 'Don Arburn' 
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel 




  Well, I have had my three score and ten plus five but want a few more. If I 
see them coming first, maybe I can hide in the bushes and hope I don't fart 
until they're gone. That would be a preview of things to come. What is the old 
deer/elk hunters line? "I thought I heard an old bull snort".

   

  F.

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com] 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:47 AM
  To: 'Geary Schindel'; Texascavers@texascavers.com; Fritz Holt
  Cc: 'Don Arburn'
  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel

   

        Uhm, Fritz?  If you encounter Zetas, RUN.  They are better armed than 
all of us combined.  Just remember those dove hunters who got hassled last 
year.  They all had guns too but nothing like the gear the bad guys had.  This 
whole Mexican border violence thing makes me wonder:

        How's the caving in Canada these days?

         

        Andy

         


        Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
        700 Billie Brooks Drive
        Driftwood, Texas 78619
        (512) 799-1095
        a...@gluesenkamp.com

        --- On Tue, 4/6/10, Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com> wrote:


          From: Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com>
          Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
          To: "'Geary Schindel'" <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>, 
"Texascavers@texascavers.com" <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
          Cc: "'Don Arburn'" <donarb...@mac.com>
          Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 11:33 AM

          Thanks, Geary.

           

          I'm sure a few hard core cavers will still travel to "safe" caving 
areas in Mexico but if I were into the great caves in Mexico , I would not be 
one of them.

         

        I trust that responsible cavers and citizens visiting Deep and Punkin 
are allowed to be armed during their visit, "just in case".

        The border patrol check point is located on my good friend's 8,000 acre 
deer lease where I dove hunt each year and is eleven miles WSW of Carta Valley. 
I will be armed come September 1st.

         

        Geezer who wants to remain one.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Can someone explain the rigging in this photo ?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs477.snc3/26123_381095590898_700420898_4311538_225826_n.jpg

I would not have clipped on to that.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hey, David.
It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope, leaving behind the maillons. 

     - Fofo

David wrote, on 8/4/10 8:16 :

Can someone explain the rigging in this photo ?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs477.snc3/26123_381095590898_700420898_4311538_225826_n.jpg

I would not have clipped on to that.

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Sure, David. The upper bolt supports the entire weight of the climber. The 
lower bolt helps to keep the rope parallel to the rock surface such that it 
does not pull the upper bolt out from the rock. The lower bolt also provides 
somewhat of a backup to the upper bolt, in case the upper bolt should fail, but 
I'd hate to rely on this. The locking carabiner with rope tangled around it is 
all that remains of the previous climber, who attempted to do a carabiner wrap 
rappel. Notice that rope is wrapped around the gate of this carabiner, which is 
why the gate temporarily opened, dropping the unfortunate climber into the pool 
below. The climber in the photo is looking down, trying to figure out where the 
previous climber landed. During all this excitement, no one thought to check 
the rigging.

You had to ask.

Rod  ;-)


-----Original Message-----
>From: David <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Apr 8, 2010 11:16 AM
>To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Subject: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
>
>Can someone explain the rigging in this photo ?
>
>http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs477.snc3/26123_381095590898_700420898_4311538_225826_n.jpg
>
>I would not have clipped on to that.
>
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>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Associated Press reporters wrote today:

"Rescuers had to turn back......

they were trying to see through total darkness with only a cap lamp to
light the way."


On a related note,

would rebreathers help mine rescuers, or would the dangerous gases
still be a problem?

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