texascavers Digest 9 Apr 2010 07:34:37 -0000 Issue 1025
Topics (messages 14404 through 14413):
Re: a rigging question ?
14404 by: Geary Schindel
14406 by: Mark Minton
Re: Mexican Travel
14405 by: Louise Power
Re: Marking Stations
14407 by: Mark Minton
Trivia cave question
14408 by: David
14409 by: David
14410 by: caverarch.aol.com
14411 by: caverarch.aol.com
14412 by: David
Deputy dead after falling into 160 ft pit in Tennessee :
14413 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Actually, there are a lot of advantages to rappelling on a single rope when
doing a pull down. This is now the preferred method used for pull downs for
canyoneering (which I think is what the folks in the picture were doing) and
becoming more popular for pull down caving trips. For example, you can use a
light weight cord for one half of the pull down cord which allows you to rappel
twice as far or carry half the rope. This also removes the possibility that
you will repel on the wrong side of the rope since the pull down cord is
thinner (unless you're a beginner or an idiot). In addition, most caving
ascending system works better on one rope in the event that you have to go back
up. Ascending with a single rope technique ascending system on two ropes
doesn't work so well. Also, since you don't have two ropes, you have less rope
management and entanglement issues). Also, you don't have to worry about
making sure the two ends of the rope are of equal lengths. There have been a
couple of accidents of folks that didn't tie their rope ends together and
didn't feed them out at the same rate. They rappelled off the end of one side
of the rope and then fell the rest of the drop. Ascending an unblocked double
rope system usually requires the use of two prusik knots which many people
don't carry with them. When using single rope techniques and a blocking system
for a pull down rappel, you do need to make sure that you use a blocking knot
on a carabiner and also make sure that you still tie a figure eight into the
end of the rope you lowered down the drop and the end of the rope at the
anchors. You can tie your smaller cord to the figure eight at the top of the
anchors for the pull down. If you are the last one down, you need to make sure
that you extend the smaller cord with you down the drop as you rappel. If you
remember, this is a variation of the cord technique which was popular some
years ago that allowed you to explore deep caves with just one rope.
Geary
From: Preston Forsythe [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 2:03 PM
To: Antonio AA; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
Yep, double rope pull down is what we do rock climbing.
Preston
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Antonio AA<mailto:[email protected]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the middle of
the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.
Sherppa
> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
>
> Hey, David.
>
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope,
> leaving behind the maillons.
>
> - Fofo
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I have only rappelled on a single rope for pull-downs for
several years. The reason is that one cannot use a double rope with
either a microrack (which I use) or a bobbin (Stop). I used to tie a
big stopper knot against the rig point, but there was always concern
that the knot, no matter how large, could deform and slip through the
maillon or whatever anchor point. But there is a simpler way that
does not involve using a carabiner. One ties a figure eight with a
loop in one side of the rope, and then passes the free end of the
rope through the anchor and then through the loop of the knot. You
then rappel on the free end of the rope below the knot, which pulls
the loop and knot up into the anchor as the stopper, and then pull
down on the opposite line at the bottom, which frees the whole
lot. It's completely secure and involves only a single line rappel,
so it works with any type of descender and any diameter of rope on
the pull-down side.
At 04:34 PM 4/8/2010, Geary Schindel wrote:
Actually, there are a lot of advantages to rappelling on a single
rope when doing a pull down. This is now the preferred method used
for pull downs for canyoneering (which I think is what the folks in
the picture were doing) and becoming more popular for pull down
caving trips. For example, you can use a light weight cord for one
half of the pull down cord which allows you to rappel twice as far
or carry half the rope. This also removes the possibility that you
will repel on the wrong side of the rope since the pull down cord is
thinner (unless you're a beginner or an idiot). In addition, most
caving ascending system works better on one rope in the event that
you have to go back up. Ascending with a single rope technique
ascending system on two ropes doesn't work so well. Also, since you
don't have two ropes, you have less rope management and entanglement
issues). Also, you don't have to worry about making sure the two
ends of the rope are of equal lengths. There have been a couple of
accidents of folks that didn't tie their rope ends together and
didn't feed them out at the same rate. They rappelled off the end
of one side of the rope and then fell the rest of the
drop. Ascending an unblocked double rope system usually requires
the use of two prusik knots which many people don't carry with
them. When using single rope techniques and a blocking system for a
pull down rappel, you do need to make sure that you use a blocking
knot on a carabiner and also make sure that you still tie a figure
eight into the end of the rope you lowered down the drop and the end
of the rope at the anchors. You can tie your smaller cord to the
figure eight at the top of the anchors for the pull down. If you
are the last one down, you need to make sure that you extend the
smaller cord with you down the drop as you rappel. If you remember,
this is a variation of the cord technique which was popular some
years ago that allowed you to explore deep caves with just one rope.
Geary
----- Original Message -----
From: Antonio AA
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
This technique scares me. I prefer to rappel with double rope (the
middle of the rope passes thru the maillon). Then, when landed, pull it down.
> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:35:00 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] a rigging question ?
>
> Hey, David.
>
> It's rigged for a pull-down. The Petzl Attache is only used as a stopper
> so that it doesn't go through the maillon, and the pull-down rope is to
> a side (coming towards the bottom of the picture), to prevent
> confusions. The last one down would make sure to drop this other side of
> the rope, go down the correct strand and then pull down the rope,
> leaving behind the maillons.
>
> - Fofo
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Caving in Canada and some of the other states is beginning to sound more
appealing.
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]
CC: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:51:06 -0500
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
There is a new tactic being used by the narcos. Now if you come across a road
block it could be either the military or the narcos. The narcos have started
putting up road blocks to protect their activates. Thus if you come upon a
road block and it is one of the naros you could be in jeopardy of getting
caught in a shoot out. They have used this tactic at numerous points at once
across from the valley and this has also been utilized in Monterrey.
Thus if you hit a road block with a big backup or do not see soldiers my advice
would be to turn around and get out of there ASAP.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: Fritz Holt
To: 'Rod Goke' ; '[email protected]' ; 'Geary Schindel' ;
[email protected]
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
Rod,
Good perspective. If armed, the key is being responsible and competent in the
use of the firearm. Depending on the circumstances, you can’t win them all but
you may save the life of others as well as your own. I have had a CHL from the
beginning but never carry. Living in Houston, I probably should. Deranged perps
seem to like groups of potential victims.
Geezer
From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:58 AM
To: Fritz Holt; '[email protected]'; 'Geary Schindel';
[email protected]
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
In my experience, "old farts" and "geezers" with shooting skills often remain
competent as marksmen long after their running abilities have diminished.
Running only works when you're faster and more agile than the predators,
otherwise it makes you look like tempting prey. Ever try running from a hostile
dog? If so, you probably have bite marks to show for it.
Even when a predator is confident that he could defeat you in a fight, he may
be deterred from attacking by the thought that doing so would cost him more
than he would gain. For a predator you cannot confidently outrun, the most
effective defense usually is to appear nonaggressive enough to avoid provoking
or cornering the predator, but to appear confident and capable of making any
attacker pay a high price. Your chances of maintaining that kind of confidence
and appearance are better when you have the means and the will to back it up.
>From all the reports I've read thus far, the Zetas are not motivated by
>religion or ideology to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. Instead, they
>are ruthless predatory criminals motivated by short term personal gain. They
>are willing to expose themselves to great risk and to show no mercy towards
>their victims, but only when they perceive that it's in their interest to do
>so.
The safest, but most limiting, option, of course, is to avoid going anywhere
with significant risk (like Andy's suggestion to cave in Canada :) ). In
principle, the risk of criminal attack is like the numerous other risk we have
to consider when planning caving trips and other activities. Sometimes we
cancel or postpone trips when risks are considered excessive. When we do decide
to go ahead with trips, we try to consider what can go wrong and to prepare
appropriately. Fritz's suggestion about being armed when traveling in certain
parts of Texas near the border is something worthy of serious consideration,
especially if Geary Schindel's April 6 report is accurate about Zetas crossing
the border not just for robbery, but to capture Americans for public torture
and killing. Going armed is not something to take lightly, but neither are the
alternatives. It's a subject that deserves the same careful consideration we
give to other types of potential emergencies that can occur during caving trips.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Fritz Holt
Sent: Apr 6, 2010 12:01 PM
To: "'[email protected]'" , 'Geary Schindel' , "[email protected]"
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
Well, I have had my three score and ten plus five but want a few more. If I see
them coming first, maybe I can hide in the bushes and hope I don’t fart until
they’re gone. That would be a preview of things to come. What is the old
deer/elk hunters line? “I thought I heard an old bull snort”.
F.
From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:47 AM
To: 'Geary Schindel'; [email protected]; Fritz Holt
Cc: 'Don Arburn'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
Uhm, Fritz? If you encounter Zetas, RUN. They are better armed than all of us
combined. Just remember those dove hunters who got hassled last year. They
all had guns too but nothing like the gear the bad guys had. This whole
Mexican border violence thing makes me wonder:
How's the caving in Canada these days?
Andy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- On Tue, 4/6/10, Fritz Holt <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Fritz Holt <[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Mexican Travel
To: "'Geary Schindel'" <[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Cc: "'Don Arburn'" <[email protected]>
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 11:33 AM
Thanks, Geary.
I’m sure a few hard core cavers will still travel to “safe” caving areas in
Mexico but if I were into the great caves in Mexico , I would not be one of
them.
I trust that responsible cavers and citizens visiting Deep and Punkin are
allowed to be armed during their visit, “just in case”.
The border patrol check point is located on my good friend’s 8,000 acre deer
lease where I dove hunt each year and is eleven miles WSW of Carta Valley. I
will be armed come September 1st.
Geezer who wants to remain one.
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For the last few years I have carried a bottle of White-Out
(correction fluid) for marking stations. The container has a little
fiber brush that can mark on most surfaces, and it lasts remarkably
well. Seems to work better than a paint pen. The only place it
doesn't work well is an actively wet surface, like flowstone with
active water flow over it. Flagging tape marked with a sharpie is
certainly good and conveys more information, and I use that often,
although it is more prone to obliteration by flooding. Another
alternative is a shallow bolt hole, which will survive almost
anything except being filled with mud during a flood. If there is
rigging left behind, a bolt and/or hanger makes a good station that
will be there forever.
Mark Minton
At 03:00 PM 4/8/2010, Preston Forsythe wrote:
By the way IMHO the carbide light is still the best tool for making
a survey station. Do we have any discussion on this Point? Red
flagging tape and a Sharpie?...........The old plastic poker chip
with a painted number and copper or stainless wire for key survey
stations at major intersections?
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The link below shows a photo of the eastern entrance, or the upstream entrance
to which Texas cave ?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/1318273188_862bb28e5a.jpg
For scale, a 6 foot person could easily walk thru the entrance and out
the western
or downstream entrance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a hint:
Here is the western or downstream entrance looking out:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1386/1316861930_b3f472a0a4.jpg
That is not a very good picture.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gunnels? If that's right, it's only because you led the trip I was on to it a
decade or so ago.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: David <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:58 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] Trivia cave question
The link below shows a photo of the eastern entrance, or the upstream entrance
to which Texas cave ?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/1318273188_862bb28e5a.jpg
For scale, a 6 foot person could easily walk thru the entrance and out
the western
or downstream entrance.
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--- Begin Message ---
I stick with my hunch - and I hadn't looked at the hint yet.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: David <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 12:03 am
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question
Here is a hint:
Here is the western or downstream entrance looking out:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1386/1316861930_b3f472a0a4.jpg
That is not a very good picture.
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--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking about adding a note that Roger could not play, but I thought that
would be rude. Should have stuck with my instincts.
Yes, the correct answer is Gunnels Cave, about 7 miles south of the town
of Center in Shelby County.
The cave deserves to be some kind of preserve, but is so far away from any
cavers, that it would be difficult to manage.
It is an interesting cave, but has only been briefly mentioned in
caving literature.
The most in depth article was in the TSS publication entitled,
"Caves and Pseudokarst of East Texas."
Here is a group of potential spelunkers at the upstream entrance:
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr62/decomaniac/Gunnels%20Cave/IMG012.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Overton deputy dies in sinkhole
_Mary Jo Denton _ (mailto:[email protected])
Herald-Citizen Staff
Wednesday, Apr 07, 2010
(http://www.herald-citizen.com/articleImages/resized/t4-6-10overton-2_lrg.jpg)
In the woods of Standing Stone State Park near Hilham on Tuesday,
emergency workers hold ropes used by a rescue team to descend into a deep
sinkhole
where an Overton County Sheriff’s deputy fell to his death. Herald-Citizen
Photo/Ty Kernea
OVERTON COUNTY -- A young Overton Sheriff's deputy was killed yesterday
when he slipped and fell 160 feet into a sinkhole in the Hilham area while
working on what was described as "old cases." Chad Pritchard, 25, had gone to
the Rocky Mound Road area of Standing Stone State Park along with another
deputy and two of the park's officials "just surveying the area, looking at
potential search sites in old cases," said Overton Sheriff W.B. Melton.
"And they walked near this sinkhole, which is about eight to 10 feet
across. Deputy Pritchard told the others, 'I'm going to take one more step and
shine my light down in there' and he slipped and was just gone. They said it
happened so fast." Deputy Derek Sidwell and the park officials called for
help, hoping to rescue Pritchard. Help came from rescuer squad members and
ambulance medics in Overton and from Putnam County, but no one was able to
establish any connection with Pritchard, who apparently died from head and
other injuries during the fall. It happened around 9:45 a.m. Tuesday.
Rescuers and rappelers entered the sinkhole later and were able to remove the
body around 2:30 p.m.
"It took the rappelers about an hour just to get down to him," said Putnam
Emergency Management Agency Director Tyler Smith. And in all, the recovery
of the body took about three hours, he said. "One of our paramedics, Jim
Knight, and one of Overton's paramedics rappelled down to him and loaded him
into a Stokes basket and we all pulled them back up by the ropes," Smith
said. Putnam rescuer Knight said, "I believe he actually fell about 200 feet,
based on the length of ropes we used." Knight said the deputy's body was
"at the very bottom of the sinkhole," which he described as "an actual pit
with an open 'room' about 75 feet across." He said that even if rescuers had
been on the scene instantly after it happened, "nothing we could have done
would have made any difference."
Sheriff Melton and others spoke highly of Deputy Pritchard, who had served
in the U.S. Army in the Iraq war and had recently married. "He was like
family to us, just a nice young man who always said 'Yes, sir, no, sir' and
did a good job," the sheriff said. "Deputy Pritchard was an outstanding
professional who was a pleasure to work with," said Assistant District
Attorney
Owen Burnett, who worked with Pritchard when the deputy served as a court
officer. "He was very polite, and everybody just thought the world of him."
Sheriff Melton said Pritchard had worked at the Overton County jail as a
corrections officer before completing the course at the Police Academy and
becoming a deputy just a couple of months ago.
_http://www.herald-citizen.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=D9256BE0-19B9-E2
E2-67BF9498682E0780_
(http://www.herald-citizen.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=D9256BE0-19B9-E2E2-67BF9498682E0780)
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