texascavers Digest 9 Apr 2010 21:08:41 -0000 Issue 1026
Topics (messages 14414 through 14427):
Re: Deputy dead after falling into 160 ft pit in Tennessee :
14414 by: Don Cooper
14416 by: David
14425 by: Gill Edigar
14427 by: Geary Schindel
Re: [NMCAVER] April 5th Mtg with Forest Service
14415 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
14424 by: Louise Power
REI sale on pulleys
14417 by: Geary Schindel
14421 by: Charles Goldsmith
14422 by: Geary Schindel
Re: Trivia cave question
14418 by: Fritz Holt
14419 by: Fritz Holt
Unimogs on Iztaccihuatl
14420 by: Preston Forsythe
Re: Unimogs
14423 by: Mark Minton
Re: Mine explosion: Gas chemistry
14426 by: Gill Edigar
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--- Begin Message ---
Oddly - a slightly DIFFERENT account was posted on the Officer Down Memorial
Page:
Deputy Chard Pritchard died when he fell into a sinkhole just outside of
Standing Stone State Park.
He, another deputy, and two state park rangers, were investigating a cold
case homicide in the area of Rocky Mountain Road when they came across the
sinkhole. As Deputy Prichard attempted to get a closer look with his
flashlight, the ground around the sinkhole gave way and he fell
approximately 160-feet to the bottom.
I dunno, I guess slipping is technically a case of "ground gave way" - but
reading the above copy - it sounds quite different!
-WaV
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:34 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> Overton deputy dies in sinkhole
> http://www.herald-citizen.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=D9256BE0-19B9-E2E2-67BF9498682E0780
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since this was a state park, shouldn't there have been a sign warning
of the dangerous
depth of the pit? Or a something around the pit like a handrail ?
I think we have all leaned out over a pit before out of curiosity.
If the victim had been holding just a small handline, costing only 3
or 4 dollars, he might be
alive today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 9:04 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> Since this was a state park, shouldn't there have been a sign warning
> of the dangerous depth of the pit? Or a something around the pit like a
> handrail ?
>
How far should we be expected to go to protect someone from their own
stupidity?
Nowhere did it say that there were no warning signs. Nowhere did it say
there was not a fence or guardrail. All of those things could have been
there a anybody could still have taken just 'one more step' to get a better
look. The deputy took 'just one more step to get a better look and the
deputy's number got called--all at the same time. He did something stupid
which most of us have also done--probably a lot of times. Want to do
something to protect people? Maybe a concrete slab or wall sealing up all
caves should be our ultimate response to stupid people falling into holes or
getting lost or hurt in caves.
> If the victim had been holding just a small handline, costing only 3 or 4
> dollars, he might be alive today.
>
Or if he'd never joined the Sheriff's Department, he might be alive today.
It's a dangerous enough job as it is; now we have to add falling into pits
to an already long list. I really doubt that a hand line could have been
used effectively to save his life if the entrance collapsed below him. He
would have needed to have been rigged into a harness. He could not have held
on when he took the fall and if he had would probably not have held on long
after that. Try hanging on a standing line with your hands some time. A hand
line would not have helped that deputy any more than a warning sign or a
handrail would have. He would probably still have ignored them all "just to
get a better look". He just did something that was beyond his range of
experience and common sense and the natural forces he ignored took took
advantage of his stupidity and killed him. That, or maybe I'm reading too
much into it; could be God just thought it might be fun to take out another
deputy.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked one of my caver friends up in Tennessee about the accident and he said
it occurred in Hilham Pit which I have not done. He said it is a 154' pit.
The entrance has a slight slope before the drop. It was likely covered with
leaves and he didn't realize how close it was.
Geary
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gill
Edigar
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 3:43 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Deputy dead after falling into 160 ft pit in
Tennessee :
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 9:04 AM, David
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Since this was a state park, shouldn't there have been a sign warning
of the dangerous depth of the pit? Or a something around the pit like a
handrail ?
How far should we be expected to go to protect someone from their own stupidity?
Nowhere did it say that there were no warning signs. Nowhere did it say there
was not a fence or guardrail. All of those things could have been there a
anybody could still have taken just 'one more step' to get a better look. The
deputy took 'just one more step to get a better look and the deputy's number
got called--all at the same time. He did something stupid which most of us have
also done--probably a lot of times. Want to do something to protect people?
Maybe a concrete slab or wall sealing up all caves should be our ultimate
response to stupid people falling into holes or getting lost or hurt in caves.
If the victim had been holding just a small handline, costing only 3 or 4
dollars, he might be alive today.
Or if he'd never joined the Sheriff's Department, he might be alive today. It's
a dangerous enough job as it is; now we have to add falling into pits to an
already long list. I really doubt that a hand line could have been used
effectively to save his life if the entrance collapsed below him. He would have
needed to have been rigged into a harness. He could not have held on when he
took the fall and if he had would probably not have held on long after that.
Try hanging on a standing line with your hands some time. A hand line would not
have helped that deputy any more than a warning sign or a handrail would have.
He would probably still have ignored them all "just to get a better look". He
just did something that was beyond his range of experience and common sense and
the natural forces he ignored took took advantage of his stupidity and killed
him. That, or maybe I'm reading too much into it; could be God just thought it
might be fun to take out another deputy.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI,
Mark A.
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Ken Harrington <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 6:10:38 PM
Subject: [NMCAVER] April 5th Mtg with Forest Service
Hi gang,
Here is a recap of what I heard last night in the meeting with the
forest service.
The meeting was run by Jacque Buchanan. She went to two caves this
weekend, Sentinel Cave with Mike Queen leading the trip and Virgin Cave
with Aaron Stockton leading the trip. She is very positive about the
caves and making the personnel in the Lincoln National Forest aware of
the valuable resources that the caves are. It is her goal to come
caving in the Guads at least once a month. She also wants to get other
FS personnel involved in the cave program. With the top person in the
LNF being pro-caves and pro-cavers, the atmosphere should improve
greatly.
Jerry Trout is being brought to Carlsbad at her request to re-vamp the
cave program. Jerry mentioned that he would like to see many more of
the caves ("why not 100 caves open") was his comment. He also stated
that the requirement to get a cave permit for the ungated caves should
be abandoned. Yes they would like to know we are there and what we are
doing but a permit should not be required. If true, this would be a
radical change in the policy of the FS. Jerry's tenure at Carlsbad will
be from May til the end of July.
There are two new District Rangers being hired for two of the three
districts and Jacque stated that they would be advised that cave
management would be a much more important part of their jobs. She
stated that currently two of the district rangers did not even know if
they had caves in their district.
She was not aware that the HGRG had contributed almost $500 thousand
dollars of volunteer time to the restoration and cleaning of the caves.
The information was just not flowing up to her level. This would have
been nice as it would have generated more dollars for her (money is the
key to everything).
They have a lot of new people either already on board or coming into the
LNF and with Jacque's enthusiasm we should be noticing a significant
change in attitude toward the cavers. The down side of things is as
Jerry stated "The Forest Service is a transient organization" and is
constantly seeing a turn over in personnel. Hopefully the changes that
Jacque is trying to implement will remain in place as future turnovers
occur.
At some point in time in the future we may be called upon by Jacque to
write letters of support to various individuals to help her implement
some of the personnel changes that she wants to make. Best senario is
that we could end up with two full time cave people in the Carlsbad
district office and one dedicated part time indivdual in each of the
other two districts. She already has two people in the other two
districts who have volunteered to be the cave "go to" person. If she
fails to get the positions approved for the Carlsbad office she will
have at least one full time cave specialist here which is better than we
had in the past. Deanna was only part time cave specialist with part of
her time dedicated to fire fighting and other activities.
I have had two different discussion with Jacque over the lack of trust
issues. She understands that gaining back the trust of the cavers is
not going to be an over night thing. It will take effort on both sides.
Years of anomosity will not mysteriously end without some effort.
Bottom line is that things are looking brighter. Continued
communications are key to ensuring that we develop a good working
relationship. I will continue to work on those lines of communications.
Ken
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars
with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=P
ID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
_______________________________________________
NMCAVER mailing list
[email protected]
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark, et al:
Unless the financial situation for the FS in New Mexico is going better than
the BLM financial situation nationwide, I wouldn't hold my breath until new
folks get hired. At BLM, at least in this state, we are doubling up on jobs; we
can't hire from outside without offering the job within the district, then
within other districts in OR/WA, then within the state office, and then
nationwide.
Louise
From: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 07:02:42 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] FW: [NMCAVER] April 5th Mtg with Forest Service
FYI,
Mark A.
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Ken Harrington <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, April 6, 2010 6:10:38 PM
Subject: [NMCAVER] April 5th Mtg with Forest Service
Hi gang,
Here is a recap of what I heard last night in the meeting with the forest
service.
The meeting was run by Jacque Buchanan. She went to two caves this weekend,
Sentinel Cave with Mike Queen leading the trip and Virgin Cave with Aaron
Stockton leading the trip. She is very positive about the caves and making the
personnel in the Lincoln National Forest aware of the valuable resources that
the caves are. It is her goal to come caving in the Guads at least once a
month. She also wants to get other FS personnel involved in the cave program.
With the top person in the LNF being pro-caves and pro-cavers, the atmosphere
should improve greatly.
Jerry Trout is being brought to Carlsbad at her request to re-vamp the cave
program. Jerry mentioned that he would like to see many more of the caves
("why not 100 caves open") was his comment. He also stated that the
requirement to get a cave permit for the ungated caves should be abandoned.
Yes they would like to know we are there and what we are doing but a permit
should not be required. If true, this would be a radical change in the policy
of the FS. Jerry's tenure at Carlsbad will be from May til the end of July.
There are two new District Rangers being hired for two of the three districts
and Jacque stated that they would be advised that cave management would be a
much more important part of their jobs. She stated that currently two of the
district rangers did not even know if they had caves in their district.
She was not aware that the HGRG had contributed almost $500 thousand dollars of
volunteer time to the restoration and cleaning of the caves. The information
was just not flowing up to her level. This would have been nice as it would
have generated more dollars for her (money is the key to everything).
They have a lot of new people either already on board or coming into the LNF
and with Jacque's enthusiasm we should be noticing a significant change in
attitude toward the cavers. The down side of things is as Jerry stated "The
Forest Service is a transient organization" and is constantly seeing a turn
over in personnel. Hopefully the changes that Jacque is trying to implement
will remain in place as future turnovers occur.
At some point in time in the future we may be called upon by Jacque to write
letters of support to various individuals to help her implement some of the
personnel changes that she wants to make. Best senario is that we could end up
with two full time cave people in the Carlsbad district office and one
dedicated part time indivdual in each of the other two districts. She already
has two people in the other two districts who have volunteered to be the cave
"go to" person. If she fails to get the positions approved for the Carlsbad
office she will have at least one full time cave specialist here which is
better than we had in the past. Deanna was only part time cave specialist with
part of her time dedicated to fire fighting and other activities.
I have had two different discussion with Jacque over the lack of trust issues.
She understands that gaining back the trust of the cavers is not going to be an
over night thing. It will take effort on both sides. Years of anomosity will
not mysteriously end without some effort.
Bottom line is that things are looking brighter. Continued communications are
key to ensuring that we develop a good working relationship. I will continue
to work on those lines of communications.
Ken
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with
Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
_______________________________________________
NMCAVER mailing list
[email protected]
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
REI has a number of their Petzl pulley's on sale. Their prusik minding Mini
Pulley is on sale for $24.93 which is usually $38.95. I ordered some on line
but you may be able to stop by their store and pick them up.
Geary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geary, I don't see the one you are referring to, but I see
http://www.rei.com/product/635119 and
http://www.rei.com/product/635118 both on sale.
Do you have a link for the mini?
Thanks
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Geary Schindel
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> REI has a number of their Petzl pulley’s on sale. Their prusik minding Mini
> Pulley is on sale for $24.93 which is usually $38.95. I ordered some on
> line but you may be able to stop by their store and pick them up.
>
> Geary
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles,
I think the just took them off the web page. They were there this morning. I
ordered some about a week ago and they were backordered. They shipped today.
You may be able to stop by the store and see what they have.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:58 AM
To: Geary Schindel
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] REI sale on pulleys
Geary, I don't see the one you are referring to, but I see
http://www.rei.com/product/635119 and
http://www.rei.com/product/635118 both on sale.
Do you have a link for the mini?
Thanks
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Geary Schindel
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> REI has a number of their Petzl pulley's on sale. Their prusik minding Mini
> Pulley is on sale for $24.93 which is usually $38.95. I ordered some on
> line but you may be able to stop by their store and pick them up.
>
> Geary
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Obviously not in Texas.
________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:12 AM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question
I stick with my hunch - and I hadn't looked at the hint yet.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: David <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 12:03 am
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question
Here is a hint:
Here is the western or downstream entrance looking out:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1386/1316861930_b3f472a0a4.jpg
That is not a very good picture.
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--- Begin Message ---
Well, it didn't look like anything one would find in Texas.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 12:48 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Trivia cave question
I was thinking about adding a note that Roger could not play, but I thought that
would be rude. Should have stuck with my instincts.
Yes, the correct answer is Gunnels Cave, about 7 miles south of the town
of Center in Shelby County.
The cave deserves to be some kind of preserve, but is so far away from any
cavers, that it would be difficult to manage.
It is an interesting cave, but has only been briefly mentioned in
caving literature.
The most in depth article was in the TSS publication entitled,
"Caves and Pseudokarst of East Texas."
Here is a group of potential spelunkers at the upstream entrance:
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr62/decomaniac/Gunnels%20Cave/IMG012.jpg
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--- Begin Message ---
When we climbed Izta, 17, 159 ft. asl, back in January of 1996, at the radar
complex 2/3s of the way up, the Mexican Army had a motor pool of Unimogs.
That was my first encounter with the beasts. Iztaccihuatl, called Izta or
Ixta for short, is the third highest mountain in Mexico and the seventh
highest mountain in North America.
Do you know a caver who has a Unimog? It would be a nice caving toy and
practical if you really roughed it and drove to the hard to get to Mexico
topo leads. You may need air impact wrenches to change a tire. Clearance
should be no problem.
The only time I have really been inside one was at the Maya Belle Campground
at Palenque. It was owned by a young German couple. They had been traveling
all over Central and South America.
Cavingly,
Preston in Outer Browder, west KY
---------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "David" <[email protected]>
To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 1:17 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36
Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.
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--- Begin Message ---
I know a couple of cavers who own Unimogs. One is Blake
Harrison in New Mexico and the other is Matt Oliphant in
California. I don't know whether either of them use their Mogs for
caving; I'm pretty sure Blake doesn't. I've ridden in Blake's, and
you wouldn't want to take it on a very long trip. It is quite noisy
in the cab, and hot. The ride is not particularly comfortable, and
it doesn't go very fast; maybe around 55 mph tops. It would be a
great vehicle to have on site, but I certainly wouldn't want to drive
it back and forth to Mexico.
The nicest Unimog I ever saw was owned by the Cousteau
Society. It was in Madagascar for one of their expeditions
<http://www.cousteau.org/expeditions/madagascar> while I was caving
there in the '90s. It had about every conceivable feature and looked
rather new. The one problem with it was that it was so tall that it
might have had trouble on some mountain roads where cliffs hang over
the road without a lot of clearance. Back when I had my 4WD school
bus I hit the roof on overhangs in Mexico a couple of times.
Mark Minton
At 11:45 AM 4/9/2010, Preston Forsythe wrote:
When we climbed Izta, 17, 159 ft. asl, back in January of 1996, at
the radar complex 2/3s of the way up, the Mexican Army had a motor
pool of Unimogs. That was my first encounter with the beasts.
Iztaccihuatl, called Izta or Ixta for short, is the third highest
mountain in Mexico and the seventh highest mountain in North America.
Do you know a caver who has a Unimog? It would be a nice caving toy
and practical if you really roughed it and drove to the hard to get
to Mexico topo leads. You may need air impact wrenches to change a
tire. Clearance should be no problem.
The only time I have really been inside one was at the Maya Belle
Campground at Palenque. It was owned by a young German couple. They
had been traveling all over Central and South America.
Cavingly,
Preston in Outer Browder, west KY
---------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "David" <[email protected]>
To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 1:17 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Unimog on e-Bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Unimog-Long-Chassis-1979_W0QQitemZ120553907140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item1c1192a3c4#v4-36
Click on some of the pictures to see the camper on the back.
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--- Begin Message ---
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Cheryl Jones wrote:
> This is from an AP report about the ongoing rescue efforts in the WV coal
> mine:
>
> "With the air deemed slightly safer four days after the blast and nitrogen
> being pumped in from above ground to neutralize explosive methane gas"
>
> Do you know how nitrogen neutralizes methane gas? I could see raising the
> N2 level in the atmosphere to make the O2 to CH4 mix less likely to form an
> explosive mixture, but I don't understand how N2 neutralizes CH4.
>
>
From: Jim and Avalon <[email protected]>
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Mine explosion: Gas chemistry question
No, it wouldn't neutralize the methane, but methane is only explosive over a
very small concentration with mixed with air. It has to be something close
to a 5% mixture, IIRC. So it might not take much change in the mixture of
the air to make it non explosive. CO in contrast is explosive in air over a
very wide range. Something like from 2% to 80% when mixed with air.
Methane explosions are very slow from what I remember. In open air, you
should be able to out run one. In fact what firebosses used to do is
intentionally set off methane explosions above there heads with their lamps.
They would lie on the ground while doing so, maybe with a wet blanket over
them for protection and raise the lamp to the ceiling. The problem is that
in the enclosed space of the mine the mild methane explosion will stir up
coal dust. A coal dust explosion is anything but mild and will use up all
the available oxygen creating a lot of CO. When you begin to reventilate
the mine the CO which is heavy will accumulate in low spots. Now you have a
recipe for disaster. You have pockets of CO sitting around that will
explode when mixed in almost any concentration with air, you have methane
everywhere mixed with air, and coal dust is going to be everywhere as well
stirred up by the first explosion. Secondary mine explosions may be far
worse than the initial explosion as the ventilation system is in ruins and
the entire mine has become explosive, not just small areas like where the
initial explosion probably happened in this case. I think it was a
secondary explosion during the early twentieth century in a mine under
Keystone WV that lifted the ground in the area something like a foot,
damaging building over a large area, and maybe sending a large number of VPI
cadets pulling up their pants and scampering for the trains to get back to
campus.
What mines are supposed to do is reduce the amount of fine materials they
have laying around, good house keeping. They then coat the walls of the
mines with rock dust. When and if an explosion occurs you want the
explosion to stir up the inert rock dust and not explosive coal dust.
Jim
--- End Message ---
