texascavers Digest 4 Dec 2009 03:22:04 -0000 Issue 903
Topics (messages 12800 through 12809):
Re: Thoughts about the TSA Spring Convention
12800 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
12801 by: Pete Lindsley
Boots Found Lottery Begins
12802 by: jack witz
Hunter in Mallorca, Spain, fell in well/pit and shot himself after several days
12803 by: Fofo
NEW Date/Location:TSA Spring Convention 2010
12804 by: ellie :)
12806 by: Pete Lindsley
12807 by: Chris Vreeland
Nutty Putty Cave
12805 by: David
12808 by: Antonio AA
12809 by: Geary Schindel
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--- Begin Message ---
All,
regarding food and the communal meal at the last few caving get-togethers, all
I can say is that Stefan and his CCC (Caving Cooking Crew) have been an
absolute godsend!
I have yet to leave an event that Stefan and Co. have catered hungry and the
food has always been plentiful, tasty, ready on time, varied, and a good
opportunity for cavers of all types to pitch in to prepare and serve the food
and to make/renew acquaintances with other cavers.
Not to mention, a source of good photos for The TEXAS CAVER!
As with all gatherings involving large amounts of food and individuals, it's
not about the food. It's about bringing all together to enjoy each others
company!
Once again, Stefan has agreed to cater the Spring Convention and will be
looking for volunteers.
Cavers and TSA are blessed to have this excellent resource that takes an
incredible amount of time and effort that most of us never see, and Stefan and
Crew continue to provide a superior service and to help us officers to keep the
TSA in the black.
I'll leave the rest of the Convention announcements to our lovely and lively
Vice-Chair Elect, Ellie, but, suffice to say, her upcoming announcement should
please young and chronologically-challenged cavers alike!
Thanks!
Mark - TSA Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, you need to find an app for your iPhone to teleport BBQ from
Brady!
- Pete
On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:23 AM, John Brooks wrote:
Well Rudys or not.....the break even for that convention like many
others was a very narrow window.....at 105.....the convention made
money.
The late choice of Rudys was made when the other catering arrangements
proved more expensive......due to excessive transport charges from
Austin.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 3, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Joe Ranzau <jran...@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh, come now... Bizarre is not one of the many adjetives I would
use to describe Ron. (if my memory is correct)
I also think it had to do with catering Rudy's BBQ. Not cheap.
Stefan et al make damn tastey food at the right caver price.
Joe
On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:43 AM, John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
The "bizzare" hat pass was initiated by someone in attendance, not
the TSA, when it was noted in the TSA meeting that the convention
did not break even.
The causes of being over budget were:
1. The Knox Ranch was expensive
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:56 PM, "Carl Kunath"
<carl.kun...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
Some of the recent comments about the TSA spring convention are
thought-provoking and a bit amusing.
First, let's establish exactly where we stand geographically.
Look at this map
http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/
100-250_miles_from_Burnet.jpg
to find the point most central to all known Texas caving groups
(we need a circle with radius = 250 miles). Since Texas is a big
place, and since we don't often have the option of choosing where
we want to be and when we want to be there, some TSA members are
going to have longer journeys than others. That said, it's not
too realistic to have the Convention at the extreme edges of the
group territory. In years past, it's been as far west as San
Angelo, but mostly it's been within that inner 100 mile circle
centered on Burnet. That's really handy for Austin, San Antonio,
and others on the I-35 corridor but not so good for Houston,
Midland, Wichita Falls, and Lubbock. It's better to gather at a
central location rather than in Wichita Falls, Houston, or Midland
-- places that would inconvenience 95% of the attendees.
David Locklear's emphasis seems poorly placed. He is more
interested in the recreational possibilities in the immediate area
than in the Convention itself. The Convention was not designed to
be a recreational weekend except as opportunity and inclination
may allow. Earlier Conventions would usually have one or more
field trips available for Sunday but were set so as not to
conflict with formal Convention activities. It is, after all, a
CAVING Convention and should not be oriented toward bicycling,
kayaking, hiking, bird-watching, swimming, or whatever.
The TSA Convention was conceived as an annual gathering where
information could be shared in a somewhat formal setting with
others of like mind. To that end, there are some requirements.
There must be a meeting room large enough for the expected group.
The room must be made reasonably dark for media presentations.
Climate control is almost a must as the spring weather in Texas is
unpredictable.
The room itself should be somewhat acoustically dead.
There must be appropriate space to display the photo and map salons.
There should be "crowd control."
Lacking crowd control, we find that if camping is just outside the
door, people continuously wander in and out of the room while
presentations are taking place. It's probably better if camping
is at least a few miles away so that people are either at the
Convention (isn't that why they are here?) or at the campground --
at least until more considerate behavior is evidenced. Recently,
some convention attendees have been rude in the extreme and some
tended to gather in the back of the room and carry on as if
nothing else was happening. The last Kerrville convention was the
worst I have ever seen in this regard.
Historically, Conventions were held at scholastic locations and
the camping was remote. The evening meal was sourced individually
either at a nearby food place or prepared at the campground. The
present-day pattern of cavers cooking for the crowd may be more
hassle than it's worth. Eliminate the need for kitchen facilities
and choice of venues is far simpler.
The Convention that Preston Forsythe referenced where a hat was
passed to offset a financial shortfall was at the Knox Ranch near
Wimberley in 2006. Convention registration was noted as 110 --
about average for recent years. No explanation was offered as to
why the Convention was in the red but that's not really the
point. To pass the hat was rather bizarre. TSA has a plump
treasury that could easily cover the shortfall. So what if it
lost a little money? If the Convention had come out financially
ahead do you think those in attendance would have received a
partial refund?
===Carl Kunath (Attending since 1962)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Everyone!
I found a pair of boots at Robber Baron the other night and yes they really are
in my size. SO! the first person to guess all the correct criteria below wins
a pair of boots!
Manufacturer:
Merrell
Coleman
Danner
North Face
Vasque
Color (not the mud)
Brown
Black
Camo
Green
Trim color
Brown
Black
Camo
Green
Size
9
10
11
12
Is there a pair of sox stuffed in them?
Yes
No
Do you have athlete's foot?
Yes
No
Let me know and I'll be glad to return them to their rightful owner.
Z
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello.
I just saw this news note. A hunter in Spain fell into a pit or well,
and after several days (with broken bones in arms and legs) shot himself:
http://tinyurl.com/yc8espa (in Spanish)
He went out hunting on November 24, the search started on November 30
(after his coworkers found his car) and he was found the following day.
My condolences for him and to the people close to him.
- Fofo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*NEW** date/location:*
*TSA** Spring Convention 2010
TCC Headquarters, Cedar Park, TX
March 26-28th, 2010*
TSA Spring convention is a great time for all of us to come together with
family and friends to enjoy group meals, presentations, workshops, new works
at the Map & Photo Salon, treasures at the TCMA auction, business meetings,
and your favorite vendors.
You will notice that I have made a change in the date and the location of
the convention and I believe it will all be for the best. I approached the
Texas Cave Conservancy (TCC) and they would love to have the Texas
Speleological Association (TSA) Spring Convention in Cedar Park, TX.
The TCC headquarters will be a great place for the 2010 TSA Spring
Convention on March 26-28th and here are some great things that the new
location adds:
- An urban convention (seconds from Austin) where locals have the choice
to go home to their fuzzy beds at night
- Nearby meeting facility seats 100+ and is suitable for digital
presentations
- The option of having Saturday workshops on cave mapping, vertical,
conservation, restoration, and cave photography (instructors permitting)
- Maps and photos will be set up in the headquarters and a room will be
available for everyone’s personal evening slideshows
- Pets are allowed off leashes, at your own risk
- Loads of nice camping
- Caving available very nearby
- A nice, cozy place to hang out during the evening
- A party on Friday night hosted by the TCC
- Convenient cooking facilities for our wonderful cooks
Diana Tomchick & Bill Steele have graciously agreed to host the program this
year and are no doubt ready to wow us with another year of great talks on
cave geology, biology, conservancy, and exploration. Please be thinking
about interesting topics to present at the convention.
Stefan and the CCC (Caving Cooking Crew) are going to bless us again this
year with a wonderful catered meal! We are all lucky to have the cooks.
Lyndon and the Greater Houston Grotto have agreed to be the registration
team. Individual and family registration fees will be announced closer to
the convention date.
If you would like to volunteer, please contact me directly at
ellie.tho...@gmail.com.
Please show your support to Texas Caving by attending.
Ellie Thoene
Your TSA Vice Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GOOD JOB, Ellie!
- Pete
On Dec 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, ellie :) wrote:
NEW date/location:
TSA Spring Convention 2010
TCC Headquarters, Cedar Park, TX
March 26-28th, 2010
TSA Spring convention is a great time for all of us to come together
with family and friends to enjoy group meals, presentations,
workshops, new works at the Map & Photo Salon, treasures at the TCMA
auction, business meetings, and your favorite vendors.
You will notice that I have made a change in the date and the location
of the convention and I believe it will all be for the best. I
approached the Texas Cave Conservancy (TCC) and they would love to
have the Texas Speleological Association (TSA) Spring Convention in
Cedar Park, TX.
The TCC headquarters will be a great place for the 2010 TSA Spring
Convention on March 26-28th and here are some great things that the
new location adds:
An urban convention (seconds from Austin) where locals have the choice
to go home to their fuzzy beds at night
Nearby meeting facility seats 100+ and is suitable for digital
presentations
The option of having Saturday workshops on cave mapping, vertical,
conservation, restoration, and cave photography (instructors permitting)
Maps and photos will be set up in the headquarters and a room will be
available for everyone’s personal evening slideshows
Pets are allowed off leashes, at your own risk
Loads of nice camping
Caving available very nearby
A nice, cozy place to hang out during the evening
A party on Friday night hosted by the TCC
Convenient cooking facilities for our wonderful cooks
Diana Tomchick & Bill Steele have graciously agreed to host the
program this year and are no doubt ready to wow us with another year
of great talks on cave geology, biology, conservancy, and exploration.
Please be thinking about interesting topics to present at the
convention.
Stefan and the CCC (Caving Cooking Crew) are going to bless us again
this year with a wonderful catered meal! We are all lucky to have the
cooks.
Lyndon and the Greater Houston Grotto have agreed to be the
registration team. Individual and family registration fees will be
announced closer to the convention date.
If you would like to volunteer, please contact me directly at ellie.tho...@gmail.com
.
Please show your support to Texas Caving by attending.
Ellie Thoene
Your TSA Vice Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think my lovely daughter would refer to this as an Epic Win!
On Dec 3, 2009, at 2:59 PM, ellie :) <ellie.tho...@gmail.com> wrote:
NEW date/location:
TSA Spring Convention 2010
TCC Headquarters, Cedar Park, TX
March 26-28th, 2010
TSA Spring convention is a great time for all of us to come together
with family and friends to enjoy group meals, presentations,
workshops, new works at the Map & Photo Salon, treasures at the TCMA
auction, business meetings, and your favorite vendors.
You will notice that I have made a change in the date and the
location of the convention and I believe it will all be for the
best. I approached the Texas Cave Conservancy (TCC) and they would
love to have the Texas Speleological Association (TSA) Spring
Convention in Cedar Park, TX.
The TCC headquarters will be a great place for the 2010 TSA Spring
Convention on March 26-28th and here are some great things that the
new location adds:
An urban convention (seconds from Austin) where locals have the
choice to go home to their fuzzy beds at night
Nearby meeting facility seats 100+ and is suitable for digital
presentations
The option of having Saturday workshops on cave mapping, vertical,
conservation, restoration, and cave photography (instructors
permitting)
Maps and photos will be set up in the headquarters and a room will
be available for everyone’s personal evening slideshows
Pets are allowed off leashes, at your own risk
Loads of nice camping
Caving available very nearby
A nice, cozy place to hang out during the evening
A party on Friday night hosted by the TCC
Convenient cooking facilities for our wonderful cooks
Diana Tomchick & Bill Steele have graciously agreed to host the
program this year and are no doubt ready to wow us with another year
of great talks on cave geology, biology, conservancy, and
exploration. Please be thinking about interesting topics to present
at the convention.
Stefan and the CCC (Caving Cooking Crew) are going to bless us again
this year with a wonderful catered meal! We are all lucky to have
the cooks.
Lyndon and the Greater Houston Grotto have agreed to be the
registration team. Individual and family registration fees will be
announced closer to the convention date.
If you would like to volunteer, please contact me directly at ellie.tho...@gmail.com
.
Please show your support to Texas Caving by attending.
Ellie Thoene
Your TSA Vice Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One news source claims a passage in the cave known as the Ladder,
will be filled with rocks and debris.
It also claims a concrete bunker will be placed at the cave entrance.
I think the cave needs to be completely and thoroughly documented before such
that action is taken. A high quality video needs to be made of the cave with
a good documentary explaining the history and science of the cave,
before it is sealed permanently.
I think the general public needs to know how much tax-money is being
spent and what
the alternatives for use of that money are. For example, they could
use the money to offer a training course in body recovery techniques,
and money could be raised in the course to
help fund the Mr. Jone's memorial.
I think an expert team of cavers needs to be able to provide an
independent report on the
Ladder Passage and the alternative choices for the removal of the
remains of Mr. Jones.
Had this been a caver stuck in a horizontal squeeze, there would have
been plenty of time
to form a rescue plan. But in this tragic case, the rescuers had to
go with what they had.
I don't have any blame towards them, but I am curious why they gave
up, and what qualifications they really had. For example, how many
of the rescuers would have been
able to make it thru the entrance of Airman's on their own without
help or guidance ? Were there any qualified cavers on the rescue
team or just fire-fighters who had completed a certified cave rescue
training course ? Were there rescuers down there that had never
even taken a cave rescue training course ?
Even if the rescuers were not qualified to be doing this kind of
rescue, you can't blame them.
The victim in question, made so many poor choices that he has to take
all the blame. Was there not anybody in his caving group capable of
helping him ? If so, why couldn't he recognize the danger he was
putting himself and the future of his kids, and grandkids, and parents
in ? For me, it is hard not to feel a sense of bitterness towards
him. His tiny mistake affected so many peoples lives in a very
tragic way.
I would rather see his remains buried in a fancy marble vault next to
the cave entrance with a marble statue of a caver, and engraved
inscriptions on the wall about caving safely.
I would rather the entrance remain open but with a secure fence around
it, and a viewing platform for the general public and gawkers to come
and peer down into the hole where John Jones died. If the fenced
area were big enough, then a wild-life exhibit could be set up, like
a bear or something.
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
O.o
I just don´t know how the cave rescues works in USA, but I am a lil curious.
Can the NCRC, ask to the authorities for a chance to try the body recovery?
> From: dlocklea...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:33:08 -0500
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] Nutty Putty Cave
>
> One news source claims a passage in the cave known as the Ladder,
> will be filled with rocks and debris.
>
> It also claims a concrete bunker will be placed at the cave entrance.
>
> > David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail gives you a free,exclusive gift.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.aspx?ocid=PID23879::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-ww:WM_IMHM_7:092009
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David and others,
There is a good thread on the NSS Cavers Forum under cave rescue on the Nutty
Putty rescue. I think you'll find that the rescue in the cave was run and
directed by NSS cavers and they made an outstanding attempt at rescue under
very difficult conditions They received excellent support from the local
rescue service and the sherriff's department. Andy Armstrong, a very well
known caver and NSS member worked on the rescue and has made an attempt to
describe the conditions in which they worked. Andy was on my ICS Valdina Farm
Sinkhole trip, along with his wife Bonnie. They are outstanding cavers.
It is very easy to Monday morning quarterback a very difficult rescue attempt.
These folks are burned out and need to degas for a while. I'm sure that the
full story will come out in time.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:33 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Nutty Putty Cave
One news source claims a passage in the cave known as the Ladder,
will be filled with rocks and debris.
It also claims a concrete bunker will be placed at the cave entrance.
I think the cave needs to be completely and thoroughly documented before such
that action is taken. A high quality video needs to be made of the cave with
a good documentary explaining the history and science of the cave,
before it is sealed permanently.
I think the general public needs to know how much tax-money is being
spent and what
the alternatives for use of that money are. For example, they could
use the money to offer a training course in body recovery techniques,
and money could be raised in the course to
help fund the Mr. Jone's memorial.
I think an expert team of cavers needs to be able to provide an
independent report on the
Ladder Passage and the alternative choices for the removal of the
remains of Mr. Jones.
Had this been a caver stuck in a horizontal squeeze, there would have
been plenty of time
to form a rescue plan. But in this tragic case, the rescuers had to
go with what they had.
I don't have any blame towards them, but I am curious why they gave
up, and what qualifications they really had. For example, how many
of the rescuers would have been
able to make it thru the entrance of Airman's on their own without
help or guidance ? Were there any qualified cavers on the rescue
team or just fire-fighters who had completed a certified cave rescue
training course ? Were there rescuers down there that had never
even taken a cave rescue training course ?
Even if the rescuers were not qualified to be doing this kind of
rescue, you can't blame them.
The victim in question, made so many poor choices that he has to take
all the blame. Was there not anybody in his caving group capable of
helping him ? If so, why couldn't he recognize the danger he was
putting himself and the future of his kids, and grandkids, and parents
in ? For me, it is hard not to feel a sense of bitterness towards
him. His tiny mistake affected so many peoples lives in a very
tragic way.
I would rather see his remains buried in a fancy marble vault next to
the cave entrance with a marble statue of a caver, and engraved
inscriptions on the wall about caving safely.
I would rather the entrance remain open but with a secure fence around
it, and a viewing platform for the general public and gawkers to come
and peer down into the hole where John Jones died. If the fenced
area were big enough, then a wild-life exhibit could be set up, like
a bear or something.
David Locklear
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