texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 22:35:24 -0000 Issue 915
Topics (messages 12959 through 12970):
Re: TSA this and that
12959 by: kego3.sbcglobal.net
12963 by: Karen Perry
12966 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
12967 by: Fritz Holt
12969 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
12960 by: Charles Goldsmith
Re: Digital vs. Print 2
12961 by: Charles Goldsmith
Change of Subject--Clean Water
12962 by: Gill Edigar
12965 by: George Veni
12968 by: Geary Schindel
12970 by: Stefan Creaser
Re: Electronic media
12964 by: Linda Palit
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--- Begin Message ---
"But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a
paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon"
Well put and amen!
------Original Message------
From: Mixon Bill
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM
Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.
Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you
pay for one.--Mixon
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past,
were intended to cover publication/postage cost.......Maybe we need to look at
the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by
12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to
make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know
what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we
all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment)
If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund
raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
Karen
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, ke...@sbcglobal.net <ke...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: ke...@sbcglobal.net <ke...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
To: "Mixon Bill" <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>, "Cavers Texas"
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 1:19 PM
"But the question should be how large a discount you get if you don't want a
paper copy, not how much more you pay for one.--Mixon"
Well put and amen!
------Original Message------
From: Mixon Bill
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Sent: Dec 14, 2009 12:51 PM
Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.
Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you
pay for one.--Mixon
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue:
We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in
order to facilitate costs.
This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how
much material I receive.
The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages.
The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages.
The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical).
This past issue was 28 pages.
If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it
would be easier to calculate.
What size fits y'all?
Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12.
Mark
________________________________
From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past,
were intended to cover publication/postage cost.......Maybe we need to look at
the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by
12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to
make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know
what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we
all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment)
If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund
raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
Karen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been admonished in the past for daring to suggest a TSA dues increase
and was reminded that we are a not for profit organization. I'm not sure that I
know the definition but it would seem that there would have to be a profit or
sizable donations in order to purchase real estate for whatever cause. But, I'm
not looking for a lesson in the law. With the questions concerning a possible
reduction in TSA dues you would think that many cavers didn't know where the
money was coming from for their next caving light. Since it is impossible to
calculate to the dollar what expenses will be, there is nothing wrong with
having a small surplus at the end of the year. At $20.00, any surplus would be
small.
Fritz
________________________________
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:34 PM
To: Karen Perry; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue:
We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in
order to facilitate costs.
This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how
much material I receive.
The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages.
The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages.
The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical).
This past issue was 28 pages.
If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it
would be easier to calculate.
What size fits y'all?
Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12.
Mark
________________________________
From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past,
were intended to cover publication/postage cost.......Maybe we need to look at
the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost, multiple by
12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a workable formula to
make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would, for one, like to know
what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's do the math before we
all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the USA comment)
If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund
raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
Karen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a national director of a large, 100 year old (as of Feb. 8, 2010) non-profit
corporation, I can tell you that you budget
to end the year in the black, which means bringing in more money than you
spend. We raise dues every few years, and that is
because costs increase. When I started my career 30 years ago membership dues
were $2.00 per year. Now they're $12. We don't call
it profit at the end of the year, we call it surplus, which is then shown in
the accounting as cash reserves.
Bill Steele
---- Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com> wrote:
> I have been admonished in the past for daring to suggest a TSA dues increase
> and was reminded that we are a not for profit organization. I'm not sure that
> I know the definition but it would seem that there would have to be a profit
> or sizable donations in order to purchase real estate for whatever cause.
> But, I'm not looking for a lesson in the law. With the questions concerning a
> possible reduction in TSA dues you would think that many cavers didn't know
> where the money was coming from for their next caving light. Since it is
> impossible to calculate to the dollar what expenses will be, there is nothing
> wrong with having a small surplus at the end of the year. At $20.00, any
> surplus would be small.
>
> Fritz
>
> ________________________________
> From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:34 PM
> To: Karen Perry; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
>
>
> This should be easy enough, Karen, but there is one issue:
>
>
> We would have to agree on exactly how many pages each issue should/will be in
> order to facilitate costs.
>
>
> This is my fault, because each issues varies in page count, depending on how
> much material I receive.
>
>
> The 1st quarter TC was 24 pages.
>
> The 2nd quarter TC was 32 pages.
>
> The 3 quarter Mega ICS issue was 64 (!) pages. (definitely not typical).
>
> This past issue was 28 pages.
>
>
> If the damn editor could make up his mind (and reliably get submissions) it
> would be easier to calculate.
>
>
> What size fits y'all?
>
> Also, there's only four issues a year, not 12.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 2:03 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA this and that
> Excellent Q! Since the majority of the dues collected, at least in the past,
> were intended to cover publication/postage cost.......Maybe we need to look
> at the cost of producing an average Caver, figure in the mailing cost,
> multiple by 12, then figure the difference in dues and come up with a
> workable formula to make as many as possible, as happy as possible. I would,
> for one, like to know what the cost of the Caver, per issue really is. Let's
> do the math before we all are insulting each other more. (Right Gil? ...the
> USA comment)
>
> If the TSA wishes to give $$$ away to noble causes, then they can do fund
> raisers for specific donations, just like grottos & the NSS.
> Karen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe, I I'm going speak to one thing here, since I administer and run
both (and the same) that you mention here.
When I took over CaveTex, Bill handed me the reins, membership list
and website. I only updated a few instructions on the site, but left
it the same as he had it. Yes, it has a disclaimer on it about it not
being the official list for TSA or any other group.
I think the majority of the CaveTex membership wants it this way,
while TSA members are a large part of the CaveTex members, there are
many here who aren't.
If the TSA wants its own list for updates, member talk, etc, I'd be
happy to set one up, but to be honest, I don't think its necessary.
TSA doesn't have anything to hide from non-members.
Do I take pride in not having CaveTex as the "official" TSA voice?
No, and it wasn't meant that way I don't think. I'm a proud (and
vocal) member of TSA, TCMA, NSS and few other organizations.
Charles
CaveTex list administrator flunky
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, <jran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Mark -
>
> *TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
> affiliated with TSA.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats a good point Gil, any idea on the costs for that? I've never needed to.
Thanks!
Charles
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
> Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto
> your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser
> printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that
> postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical
> hassle. It's the best of both worlds.
> --Ediger
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The
>> Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all
>> that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed
>> issues.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RE: Clean Water Action
A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of
and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks
from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to
keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave
them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data
card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good
slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
nebulous details.
Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some
of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good
work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've
never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what
they really do.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas
since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and
agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water
degradation. I haven't seen them much in the past 10 years and don't know if
the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted
to other projects in other areas.
George
From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill
Edigar
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
RE: Clean Water Action
A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of
and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks
from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to
keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave
them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data
card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good
slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
nebulous details.
Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some
of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good
work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've
never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what
they really do.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sent Annalisa Peace a email about Clean Water Action and this is here
response.
Geary
Dear Geary,
Yes, they are a national organization with an office in Austin. They hire
canvassers to solicit donations in San Antonio, but they do not get involved in
any local issues. CWA used to be a member group of AGUA (when AGUA was
structured that way) but have not joined GEAA. They do do good work on the
national level. So, I guess giving would be based on whether the donor is
interested in local or national action.
If someone is a caver, they might want to donate to GEAA or SOS on the water
front, as we are actively involved in issues of mutual interest.
Hope that answers your question.
Annalisa Peace
Executive Director
Greater Edwards Aquifer Alliance
210-320-6294
www.aquiferalliance.org<http://www.aquiferalliance.org/>
From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill
Edigar
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:39 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
RE: Clean Water Action
A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of and
promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water
is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it
would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with
good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every
environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and
signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got
a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more
information. A letter followed but with nebulous details.
Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS,
the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our
cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc,
etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard
of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This lot sound like the TSA/TCMA/TCC/TCR/etc. ;-)
"United against the common enemy" :-)
Cheers,
Stefan
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:23 PM
To: Gill Edigar; texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Annalisa Peace
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
I sent Annalisa Peace a email about Clean Water Action and this is here
response.
Geary
Dear Geary,
Yes, they are a national organization with an office in Austin. They
hire canvassers to solicit donations in San Antonio, but they do not get
involved in any local issues. CWA used to be a member group of AGUA
(when AGUA was structured that way) but have not joined GEAA. They do
do good work on the national level. So, I guess giving would be based
on whether the donor is interested in local or national action.
If someone is a caver, they might want to donate to GEAA or SOS on the
water front, as we are actively involved in issues of mutual interest.
Hope that answers your question.
Annalisa Peace
Executive Director
Greater Edwards Aquifer Alliance
210-320-6294
www.aquiferalliance.org <http://www.aquiferalliance.org/>
From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
Gill Edigar
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:39 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
RE: Clean Water Action
A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit
called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote
awareness of and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or
fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South
Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if
one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental
intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental
interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed
their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got
a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked
for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details.
Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that
some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their
good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them,
but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they
are and what they really do.
--Ediger
--
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Talk to an archivist. All the digital nightmares are multiplied with the
evolving technology, and the potential of losing information because it is
not in a platform that is still used.
Perhaps this really is the third revolution, agricultural revolution,
industrial revolution and "communications revolution" or whatever historical
moniker this era ends up with, if it is indeed that significant.
-----Original Message-----
From: mmin...@caver.net [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:12 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Electronic media
Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to
digital journal subscriptions. I have seen this as a potential
problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my
profession (chemist). There are a few journals that allow an
institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if
they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the
library ends up with no collection if they ever stop. That seems
patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms.
Another problem is that when the library suffers a power
failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has
access to their material. At least with a paper copy you could read
it with a flashlight during a power failure. I often made printed
copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab
in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with
print journals as well.
Mark Minton
Quoting Geary Schindel <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>:
> There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media
> that folks are still wrestling with.
>
> This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but
> many professional journals are going on line and are only available
> through a subscription service. If a college or university
> subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their
> collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to
> view it. However, now that some journals are only available on line
> through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the
> service. Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year
> to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose
> which ones you want - you have to buy their package. And if you
> don't renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year
> you didn't buy.
>
> In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be
> honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested. I
> do know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I
> wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word star program. The only surviving
> copies are paper (not that it was that important a work). However
> books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are
> printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings.
>
> The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its
> head as we change media type. Search engines are very powerful and
> have greatly added in doing research. The flip side is that it
> could, in theory, disappear overnight.
>
> FYI,
>
> Geary
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