texascavers Digest 15 Dec 2009 14:56:44 -0000 Issue 917

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 15 Dec 2009 14:56:44 -0000 Issue 917

Topics (messages 12979 through 12991):

Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
        12979 by: Charles Goldsmith
        12980 by: Nico Escamilla

UT Grotto meeting December 16, 2009
        12981 by: Gary Franklin

Re: Clarification, and Back to Caving
        12982 by: Karen Perry

Re: Endless Restoration Project
        12983 by: Logan McNatt

Re: Digital vs. Print 2
        12984 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
        12985 by: Charles Goldsmith

clothing related
        12986 by: David
        12987 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Re: TSA, Caver, and Caving
        12988 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Re: Clean Water Action
        12989 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net

Re: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
        12990 by: Rod Goke

bulk mail and TX Caver mailing
        12991 by: Rod Goke

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
        <texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com>

To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
        <texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>

To post to the list, e-mail:
        <texascavers@texascavers.com>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

--- Begin Message ---

Gil, I seem to remember you making that statement within the last year
or so, about the $100 donation.  I also seem to remark about matching
that, and I'll stand by it.  I'll donate $100 as well.

Charles

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P.
> Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruin....I will go digital if Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>
> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver
> who wants to sign up for a free subscription. Subscribing non-TSA members
> should be solicited to join TSA but membership should not be a requirement
> for receiving all the good caving information aimed at bettering the cause
> of caving in Texas. As a caver and TSA member I, personally, would want
> every caver in Texas to be reading TSA promotional material, safety
> information, articles about equipment and techniques, cave science, upcoming
> events which they can support by attending, trip and cave reports, and
> participating personally by attending TSA conventions and contributing
> articles to The TEXAS CAVER themselves, all of which will also benefit ME. I
> am selfish. I want all of these non-TSA members to read The TEXAS CAVER
> because I will benefit from them being more informed and better cavers. They
> do not have to be TSA members to be better cavers. But they can be better
> cavers, and well qualified and participating members of the Texas caving
> community, if they simply read and contribute to The TEXAS CAVER. And their
> participation is good for me, it is good for you, and it is good for Texas
> caving. That is probably the most valuable service the TSA can provide to
> cavers and caving in Texas--keeping EVERYONE informed so they can be a
> better participant in Texas caving.
> I coined a phrase in 1969, "As The TEXAS CAVER goes, so goes the TSA." I
> think that is still true today. If The TEXAS CAVER is made available to all
> Texas cavers digitally and free then we will see a much better informed
> group of Texas cavers taking the bait to become members of the TSA and
> helping it reach it's selfish aims and purposes--a major part of which is
> promoting Texas caving--for ALL of us, not just the few. The time has
> finally come, my fellow Texas cavers, to do something for our selfish
> selves. It costs the TSA nothing to give The TEXAS CAVER away digitally. It
> costs the TSA and Texas caving a lot not to. If you want to do something
> selfish for yourself and for all the other Texas cavers vote at your
> earliest opportunity to separate The CAVER from TSA membership, to make it
> free to any digital subscriber.  Otherwise, we're just preaching to the
> choir.
> Yours in Texas caving (for nearly 43 years now),
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> I want to save the TSA from financial ruin....I will go digital if Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>
>>
>> On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, "mark.al...@l-3com.com" <mark.al...@l-3com.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Welcome back, Karen!
>>
>> Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
>>
>>
>
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Amen Ediger!

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 6:35 PM, John P. Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>  wrote:
>
>  I want to save the TSA from financial ruin....I will go digital if Ediger
>> renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment?
>>
>
> Ediger will renew his lapsed TSA membership and donate $100 to the TSA
> within seconds of The TEXAS CAVER being made a free publication to any caver
> who wants to sign up for a free subscription.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Underground Texas Grotto meeting December 16, 2009 

The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M. 
on the University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall 
http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html

Peter Sprouse will present the program of the evening, "Exploration of a new 
caving area at Muzquiz, Coahuila".  A recent trip to this newly found area 
yielded many major pits where the teams kept returning for more rope.  Come see 
some photography of this spectacular porous Karst region of Mexico where the 
rancher extended access as well as plenty of food for their Thanksgiving.

For information on UT Grotto www.utgrotto.org activates, please see the website.
All of our information is available through our link including officer contact 
info, trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to 
beginner trips or vertical rope training.  

Sometimes, cavers meet before the meeting about 6:30 at Sau Paulo 
www.saopaulos.net  for happy hour.  After every meeting, we adjourn to the 
Posse www.posseeast.com for beer and burgers.

The UT Grotto Program needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share 
about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool.  
Contact Gary   v...@utgrotto.org

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

I am so excited I can hardly contain myself. Tom Byrd and Carl Kunath
are coming to Carlsbad this weekend to join in the Endless Restoration
Project.  

The
McKittrick Hill caves have been closed now for several years with only
resto permits being issued. The projects have toiled along slowly but
with much progress being made. Things are starting to truly show the
cave recovering from decades of mud & dirt being trampled into
places that should have never been walked on. Carbide dumps are
disappearing, broken flash bulbs removed, damaged formations
repaired.......

Well, check out some of these photos..... hope to wet your appetite for 
more.......

Karen
one of the McKittrick Project Leaders

---



So, let's get back to caves and caving.  I know there was a Colorado
Bend project this weekend, and a TCMA meeting.  Anyone want to give a
brief report on those events?  Anyone else go caving?  Please, someone,
anyone.



Logan



P.S.  Thomas, tell me more about using cellulose for ethanol
(OFFLINE)!  ;)





Fritz Holt wrote:

  
  
   Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I
consider myself an environmentalist but if there really is such a thing
as “clean”
coal technology I am for it. We have plenty of it. I also think that
generating
electricity from nuclear energy makes good sense. The best solution may
be
natural gas but our federal government needs to wake up to the fact
that to get
it we must drill for it as well as for oil as we will never be without
the need
for this commodity. It is crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No
one  loves
our Texas Hill Country more than I but I don’t believe that these
activities
will be harmful if sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them.
I
believe that cavers who owned a tract of land would accept a very
lucrative offer
to lease it for oil and gas exploration. That’s not greed, its good
sense. Let the naysayers come forth.  
  Fritz



From:  Thomas Sitch
[mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com]

  
  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
5:23 PM

  
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com

  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re:
Clean Water Action
  
     
  
   "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ',
and Georgetown 's]
Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"  
  
  
   "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning
Power
Plants"  
  
  
   I love political activists who are very specific on
shutting down
energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g.  
  
  
  
  
   "Tell the Austin City Council To Support
Clean Energy"  
  
  
  
  
   How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons
Pickins
wind farms" or "research fund for cellulosic ethanol."  
  
  
  
  
   Sorry, what was this about?  Clean water?  Yes, which goes
to
caves, and we don't have enough of it.  Down with nuclear energy!! 
  
  
  
   ~~T  
  
  
  
  
  
    
  
     
   From:   Logan
McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com>

  To: George Veni
<gv...@warpdriveonline.com>

  Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com

  Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20
PM

  Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean
Water Action

   

I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still
a
viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin : 
http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx

The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door
to door
once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.

  

Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local
issues, the
issues on their website include:

"The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation
Efforts in Central Texas", 

"Tell the Austin City Council To Support
Clean Energy"

"Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels ', and Georgetown 's]
Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"

"Increase Funding for State Parks"

"Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"

"Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"

  

Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not
tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot
of
duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but
many of
the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue,
and
cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.

  

Logan 
     
   George Veni wrote:  
  
   Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and
San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to
lobby government and
agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent
water
degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and
don’t know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it
simply got diverted to other projects in other areas.   
   George   
     
  
   From:  bgillegi...@gmail.com
[mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com]
  On Behalf Of Gill Edigar

  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
12:39 PM

  To: texascavers@texascavers.com

  Subject: [Texascavers] Change of
Subject--Clean Water 
  
   RE: Clean
Water Action  
  
   A few
months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
'Clean
Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of  and
promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
water
is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
world it
would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from
folks with
good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with
every
environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks
and
signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days
ago I got
a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked
for more
information. A letter followed but with nebulous details.  
  
  
   Does
anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
SOS, the
City of Austin ,
the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work
at? Can
anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're
on the
up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before
and want
a better idea of who they are and what they really do.   
  
   --Ediger  
  
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands,
e-mail:
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com  
  
  
  
  

 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com




      


      

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Thank you Karen, for such a quick response to my request!  And it actually involves three Texas cavers (still counting you) going caving in ...uh, what we fondly refer to as Far West Texas.  This is the sort of "Endless" discussion this list needs!  Have a great trip and be sure to send a report.  (But remember, I don't think attachments are allowed on the list.) Logan I am so excited I can hardly contain myself. Tom Byrd and Carl Kunath are coming to Carlsbad this weekend to join in the Endless Restoration Project. The McKittrick Hill caves have been closed now for several years with only resto permits being issued. The projects have toiled along slowly but with much progress being made. Things are starting to truly show the cave recovering from decades of mud & dirt being trampled into places that should have never been walked on. Carbide dumps are disappearing, broken flash bulbs removed, damaged formations repaired....... Well, check out some of these photos..... hope to wet your appetite for more....... Karen one of the McKittrick Project Leaders

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

 
Let's see now.  I pay for a Texas Caver with my dues to the TSA.   Then I 
receive my electronic copy off the TSA website.  Then I get in my  car and 
drive to the FedEx or wherever to pay for a printed version.  All  to save the 
TSA a little money and the editor some grief.  Now multiply  this scenario 
4 times a year for about half the TSA membership.  I  don't believe that's a 
better world for anyone.
 
I agree with Mixon that a two-tiered system has probably come of age for  
the TSA.  But it also means that dues should be proportionally reduced for  
those that choose to receive an electronic copy of the TxCvr.  Unless, of  
course, the reason for reducing the costs of the TxCvr is to create a large  
cash surplus for the TSA.
 
Saving the TSA money is a noble goal but providing the membership with  
tangible services is really the purpose of the whole organization.  The  
membership is quite diverse and their needs should be accommodated as much  as 
possible, not made to feel defensive because they aren't the same as some  
faction within the group.  I'm disappointed that in the present discussion,  
there are some that feel that their view has got to be the only reasonable  
way.  Why not work toward a reasonable compromise that works for all the  
membership ?
 
The current discussion regarding whether or not a hardcopy version of  the 
TxCvr should be published has thus far produced nothing to provide better  
services for the membership and caused mostly dissension in an organization 
that  needs more members and participation.  I'm a little surprised that the  
Chairman thought this was an interesting way to stir up the restive  
masses.  Let sleeping dogs lie.
 
Jerry.
 
In a message dated 12/14/2009 8:31:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
gi...@att.net writes:

Don't  anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file 
onto your  memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color 
laser  printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that 
postage  and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical 
hassle.  It's the best of both worlds.  
--Ediger

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Actually Jerry, I'm the one who brought up (yet again) that we should
push for the Digital cheaper version of TSA and less paper waste.  I
don't think it was Mark's intention with his story.  I just took his
story and ran with it.

Gil's idea has merit, and it helps out all of the caving community,
not just TSA members.

Charles

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:02 AM,  <jerryat...@aol.com> wrote:
> Let's see now.  I pay for a Texas Caver with my dues to the TSA.  Then I
> receive my electronic copy off the TSA website.  Then I get in my car and
> drive to the FedEx or wherever to pay for a printed version.  All to save
> the TSA a little money and the editor some grief.  Now multiply this
> scenario 4 times a year for about half the TSA membership.  I don't believe
> that's a better world for anyone.
>
> I agree with Mixon that a two-tiered system has probably come of age for the
> TSA.  But it also means that dues should be proportionally reduced for those
> that choose to receive an electronic copy of the TxCvr.  Unless, of
> course, the reason for reducing the costs of the TxCvr is to create a large
> cash surplus for the TSA.
>
> Saving the TSA money is a noble goal but providing the membership with
> tangible services is really the purpose of the whole organization.  The
> membership is quite diverse and their needs should be accommodated as much
> as possible, not made to feel defensive because they aren't the same as some
> faction within the group.  I'm disappointed that in the present discussion,
> there are some that feel that their view has got to be the only reasonable
> way.  Why not work toward a reasonable compromise that works for all the
> membership ?
>
> The current discussion regarding whether or not a hardcopy version of the
> TxCvr should be published has thus far produced nothing to provide better
> services for the membership and caused mostly dissension in an organization
> that needs more members and participation.  I'm a little surprised that the
> Chairman thought this was an interesting way to stir up the restive masses.
> Let sleeping dogs lie.
>
> Jerry.
>
> In a message dated 12/14/2009 8:31:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> gi...@att.net writes:
>
> Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto
> your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser
> printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that
> postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical
> hassle. It's the best of both worlds.
> --Ediger
>
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

I know many of you like to wear North Face clothing, or camp in
North Face tents.

Here is a funny story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091215/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_north_face_lawsuit;_ylt=AiEZ6QvcVTOpQx2AiQaTbvXtiBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ1Z3FoZjNlBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMjE1L3VzX29kZF9ub3J0aF9mYWNlX2xhd3N1aXQEcG9zAzMEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawN0aGVub3J0aGZhY2U-

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

That's hilarious (and a petty lawsuit)!



Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:36 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] clothing related

I know many of you like to wear North Face clothing, or camp in
North Face tents.

Here is a funny story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091215/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_north_face_lawsui
t;_ylt=AiEZ6QvcVTOpQx2AiQaTbvXtiBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ1Z3FoZjNlBGFzc2V0A2FwLzI
wMDkxMjE1L3VzX29kZF9ub3J0aF9mYWNlX2xhd3N1aXQEcG9zAzMEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGV
fc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawN0aGVub3J0aGZhY2U-

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Thanks, Chris, for the kind words.
 
I live to serve!
 
 
 
Mark
 
 

________________________________

From: Chris Vreeland [mailto:cvreel...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 8:14 PM
To: texascavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA, Caver, and Caving


I just got my gorgeous hard copy of the Caver in the mail today, and have to 
say that as an old fart, I really like getting publications in the mail at 
seemingly random intervals, and sitting down in a chair to read them. Then, I 
enjoy putting them on my bookshelf.  

One thing I do not enjoy is driving to Office Max to stock up on ink cartridges.


If it takes another $5.00 a year to keep them coming, I think I can skip a pack 
of cigarettes in order to make that happen.

BTW, Thanks Mark, for an excellent issue! As a former editor, I thought i knew 
all about the unsung heroics of editing, but your tale of woe tops them all. 
Please keep up the good work!

 

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Y'all ought to read Stewart Brand's WHOLE EARTH DISCIPLINE.  I've thrown the book across the room a couple of times...he's quite the gadfly, as ever.   T Dec 14, 2009 05:52:19 PM, fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Sorry, I must take an opposing view. I consider myself an environmentalist but if there really is such a thing as “clean” coal technology I am for it. We have plenty of it. I also think that generating electricity from nuclear energy makes good sense. The best solution may be natural gas but our federal government needs to wake up to the fact that to get it we must drill for it as well as for oil as we will never be without the need for this commodity. It is crazy to be importing it from our enemies. No one  loves our Texas Hill Country more than I but I don’t believe that these activities will be harmful if sensibly regulated which does not mean banning them. I believe that cavers who owned a tract of land would accept a very lucrative offer to lease it for oil and gas exploration. That’s not greed, its good sense. Let the naysayers come forth. Fritz From: Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:23 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"   I love political activists who are very specific on shutting down energy production but very vague on creating it, e.g.   "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"   How about "donate to build power lines to the T. Boons Pickins wind farms" or "research fund for cellulosic ethanol." Sorry, what was this about?  Clean water?  Yes, which goes to caves, and we don't have enough of it.  Down with nuclear energy!!   ~~T From: Logan McNatt To: George Veni Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 4:51:20 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Clean Water Action I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin:  http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live. Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues, the issues on their website include: "The Coming Crisis:  Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts in Central Texas", "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy" "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy" "Increase Funding for State Parks" "Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water" "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants" Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not tax-deductible.  I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue, and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA. Logan George Veni wrote: Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted to other projects in other areas. George From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water RE: Clean Water Action A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of  and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with nebulous details. Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what they really do.  --Ediger --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA membership 
ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think that Mark has been 
doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the dedicated work that he 
and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I blame TSA for the small 
amount of spam that occasionally slips through the filters into my email 
account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they don't even have my email 
address? ;-) )

I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle our email 
addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA already has placed 
an online listing of its electronically registered members on its password 
protected website. Then look at Gill's recent proposal to make online access to 
the Texas Caver free for nonmembers. Neither of these things necessarily 
involves an irresponsible release of TSA members' email addresses when 
considered separately (although I still would rather not have my email address 
on even a members-only password protected online list). When both of these 
things are considered together, however, along with all the other turmoil about 
TSA digital publication policies, it is easy to imagine how people might 
provide their email addresses to TSA assuming one seemingly responsible privacy 
policy, only to discover later that TSA has changed its mind and has made the 
email address list more widely accessible than people had expected when they 
provided their addresses.

I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted people to 
actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just telling us "don't 
worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA simply would make a 
commitment to its members that no member's email address will be included in 
any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in" for inclusion in the 
list. TSA members need to be able to register for website access without having 
their email addresses published in an online list. 

Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>
>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just 
>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who 
>are very much appreciated.
>
>Bill
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers" 
><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>
>
>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail 
>> messages per WEEK.
>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA 
>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems 
>> fair or reasonable.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
>>
>> Rod,
>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3 
>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam 
>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server  helps me figure 
>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of 
>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the 
>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that 
>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can 
>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of 
>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in 
>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
>>
>> Bill
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>
>>
>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver 
>> reminds me of a related issue:
>>
>>   Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
>>
>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership 
>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this 
>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with 
>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in 
>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email 
>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The 
>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form, 
>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be 
>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
>>
>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, 
>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital 
>> publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of 
>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard 
>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information 
>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap 
>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it 
>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated 
>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our 
>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a 
>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to 
>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards 
>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital 
>> publication of email addresses
>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
>>
>> Rod
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>> 
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Back about 20 years ago the Texas Caver was mailed via bulk mail to minimize mailing costs. At that time, I was the person responsible for maintaining the TSA membership/subscription database on my computer (with a Z-80 processor and CP/M operating system, for any of you other old farts who can remember that far back) and for printing the mailing labels for each mailing of the Texas Caver. To facilitate bulk mailing, I wrote a dBASE program to print the mailing labels sorted and grouped according to the USPS requirements for bulk mailing. This was NOT simply a matter of sorting by zip code. I don't recall the exact rules for bulk mailing at that time, but they were approximately as follows: 1. The total number of items mailed had to be at least 200 to qualify for bulk mail. 2. Items had to be grouped and bundled according to 5-digit zip code, provided that there were at least some specified minimum number of items (probably about 10, but don't remember exactly) in each bundle, where all items within a bundle had to have the same 5-digit zip code. 3. Items with zip codes that didn't qualify for the 5-digit bundles then had to be grouped and bundled in a similar manner according to the first 3 zip code digits. 4. Items that didn't qualify for the 3-digit bundles then had to be grouped and bundled still further. I believe it was by state, and then, finally, a mixed state bundle. Also, I think we had a few subscriptions that were mailed out of the Country and had to be separated from the bulk mail bundles. I believe my program also counted and reported the number of items in each bulk mail bundle, in addition to the total number of bulk mail labels. I think it also printed the TSA membership expiration date on each label and included some special indication for those that were about to expire. Sticking labels and bundling Cavers for bulk mailing took a lot of work, but we didn't expect the editor do everything by himself. I printed the labels. Then we would often get several volunteers together to stick labels and arrange the bundles. These volunteers didn't have to understand the USPS rules for sorting bulk mail into bundles, since the label printing program took care of that. When several volunteers got together to share the work, it seemed more like an enjoyable social event than a burdensome chore. Similarly, we also devised ways to split the work of updating the database (for new memberships, membership renewals, address changes, etc.), and I wrote another dBASE program to facilitate this. Turning work into an opportunity for social interaction was, and still is, the most effective way I know to prevent volunteers from feeling burned out. At that time, the number of actual TSA members was often a little less than the 200 required for bulk mailing, but the database included enough free or exchange subscriptions mailed to cave owners, institutions, etc. that we were able to mail the required minimum. To achieve this, the database probably included more complimentary and exchange subscriptions than it would have otherwise, but the lower cost of bulk mail meant that we could actually save money by mailing a few extra copies. In fact, we might have even had a policy of mailing one copy after a person's membership expired and printing "EXPIRED" on the label to remind them to renew. I don't remember for sure about this, but I think I recall adding a feature to the label printing program to do this. TSA probably could save money by using bulk mail if they mail a sufficient quantity, but that quantity might be impractical to achieve if many people choose not to receive paper copies. If TSA does want to use bulk mail, I'd be glad to talk with whoever is currently responsible for the database and the mailing label printing to see if there is anything I can do to help. If TSA does not find it practical to use bulk mail, then we might consider other ways to reduce mailing cost without eliminating the quality printed copies that so many of us still value. For example, many of us in TSA regularly attend local grotto meetings and might be satisfied to pick up our printed copies at local grotto meetings instead of having them mailed to our homes. With this option, TSA could notify members via email whenever a new edition becomes available so that we would know to pick it up at the next grotto meeting and could access it electronically in the meantime. This method of distribution would require one volunteer in each grotto to receive a box of Cavers and to distribute them to the appropriate people. (I'd be willing to do this for the UT Grotto.) It might greatly reduce the number of Cavers that have to be mailed individually and have the added benefit of encouraging local grotto attendance. As a TSA member, I'd be happy to select this option and wouldn't even mind giving TSA my email address for this purpose if I could trust them not to list it on a website.  Rod -----Original Message-----  From: Chris Vreeland  Sent: Dec 14, 2009 8:14 PM  To: texascavers Texas  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA, Caver, and Caving  I just got my gorgeous hard copy of the Caver in the mail today, and have to say that as an old fart, I really like getting publications in the mail at seemingly random intervals, and sitting down in a chair to read them. Then, I enjoy putting them on my bookshelf.  One thing I do not enjoy is driving to Office Max to stock up on ink cartridges. If it takes another $5.00 a year to keep them coming, I think I can skip a pack of cigarettes in order to make that happen. BTW, Thanks Mark, for an excellent issue! As a former editor, I thought i knew all about the unsung heroics of editing, but your tale of woe tops them all. Please keep up the good work! On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Linda Palit wrote: I believe the problem with the bulk rate has been that we are not sending out enough copies to get the bulk rate.  The truth is, also, that print media is in decline.  I believe that it is probably time to revisit the two-tier membership option and gradually phase that in.     From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]  Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:39 AM To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com; TexasCavers Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print     I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future.   (Sorry to tell y'all that!)   From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com] I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer them.  I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues.

--- End Message ---