texascavers Digest 16 Dec 2009 05:19:41 -0000 Issue 920
Topics (messages 13016 through 13023):
Subscribers to digital publications
13016 by: Gill Edigar
13018 by: Charles Goldsmith
13019 by: Gill Edigar
Re: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
13017 by: Rod Goke
Re: Officer's powers
13020 by: Butch Fralia
13023 by: Gill Edigar
Re: speloo greeting
13021 by: Bill Bentley
a caver passed away
13022 by: David
Administrivia:
To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com>
To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>
To post to the list, e-mail:
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>wrote:
> If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it
> will be available on the front page.
That would not be good. But it would not be not good because of the reason
being discussed here--spam, etc. There's another...
Now I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna tell you then I'm gonna tell you
why--two paragraphs.
The process should be some variation of this:
Cavers can get 'invited to subscribe' to The TEXAS CAVER by any of
several means--from the TSA or Grotto Home Pages, at Grotto meetings, the
TSA convention, TCR, from fellow cavers, from handouts at projects such as
CBSP, Gov Canyon, Punkin & Deep, etc, or basically any way and place that
cavers get together.
Then, the caver will go to the link on the TSA web site and navigate to
the Subscribe to The TEXAS CAVER button.
Then, the caver will be asked for some vital information such as name,
address, etc, NSS number, Grotto affiliation (or independent), and maybe
even personal info such as family member names (which are mostly for photo
identification purposes, not for publication, etc), age, years caving, and a
brief caving bio, and the all important email address (which does not have
to be the caver's primary one). Most of this info will be voluntary.
Basically all that will be needed is a name and an email address and a
password.
The caver will also be asked to furnish a password for accessing his or
her own personal subscription information.
Then, whenever a new CAVER is ready to mail (or some breaking TSA
caver-worthy news) the caver will be sent a message telling him or her to go
access his or her subscription account, and to download a free digital copy
of whatever is being offered--TEXAS CAVER or whatever. There could be some
restrictions as to which publications can be downloaded without being a TSA
member, such as a Members Manual, meeting minutes, etc.
Then, they can download it and print it out in any way they choose,
archiving the digital copy for posterity, and getting back to doing whatever
they were doing before--or maybe read The CAVER.
The mechanics of that process are not too hard to visualize--I hope. But
there are some questions, I'm sure. So here are a few 'whys' to dispel some
of um.
Q. Why require a subscription?
A. Because what we really want is to know who is this subscriber is and
where they fit in the Texas caving scene. Basically we are trying to
identify all the cavers in Texas so we can keep in contact with
them--ostensibly through the auspices of The TEXAS CAVER--and influence them
and they us. "We will give you a free CAVER if you will be a part of our
'extended' TSA caving fraternity. This is a bribe from us to know who you
are and that you are one of us--even though you may have been hiding for
many years because you felt that the TSA doesn't care about you--doesn't
want you to be a part of their elite group without you getting involved in
their political intrigues" or any other reasons you may have.
Q, How does this help the TSA?
A. The subscription gives the TSA a database for contacting outside
cavers (not just TSA members) about important issues such as cave
conservation, caver functions, projects, conventions, TCR and other events
that cavers would be interested in. It also restricts (somewhat) the
distribution of errant issues on the open market. That's not to say that I
couldn't just print out 40 copies via my download and hand them out at
Walgreens. It also provides a larger man-power base of both leaders and
followers which will obviously contribute to projects, training,
participation, writing articles, and a general contribution to more and
better caving.
Q. How will my email address be protected?
A. The subscriber list will be maintained as a database, pretty much
entirely electronically. The database, or selected fields, at least, should
be available to subscribers as a caver service. Subscribers could elect to
not make their email address and certain other fields visible. Also, certain
low tech schemes such as embedding the letters 'TSA' into each email address
to be manually removed by the end user could offer some degree of security,
but probably not worth it.
Q. Will a Members Manual be published?
A. A hard copy Members Manual is a handy reference for cavers who travel
great distances to visit caves and caving events. But, as the Members Manual
is a TSA list, perhaps only TSA members could be allowed to download it.
That would provide incentive to join TSA. Properly loaded, a Members Manual
could be available for downloading just like The TEXAS CAVER. Again,
subscribers can elect to have their sensitive data available for viewing or
printing.
Q. How do we keep just anybody from accessing and printing out a copy of The
CAVER or Member's Manual?
A. Well, basically we can't. I can print one for my brother-in-law and he
can leave it laying in the break room at work for anybody to see. Just like
a hard copy could be. But the subscription process will help and will at
least let us track who is subscribing--which should be valuable information,
in it's own right, for an organization dedicated to conservation and safety,
at least.
Q. How will the hard copy subscribers be handled?
A. When subscribing to receive The TEXAS CAVER, a subscriber can elect
from any of 3 options: 1) To receive free digital TEXAS CAVER downloads (and
other selected publications and notices). 2) To receive both a digital
notification for downloading and a hard copy of any (again, selected)
publications. 3) To receive one or more hard copies from TSA via USPS at a
proscribed rate to cover production and mailing costs. A 4th option, which
should probably come first, would be to join the TSA as a dues paying member
with voting and other privileges, hopefully stated somewhere.
Q. Who will tend to the hard copy printing and mailing business?
A. Traditionally the editor had a major hand in that, often doing it
all--printing, collating, binding, labeling, sorting, mailing, paying, and
dealing with returns, address changes, etc. At time there were helpers for
any or most of those tasks. I suspect that with the lighter load, the editor
can easily handle it all. But the door will still be open for volunteers to
pitch in. Hard copy subscribers will probably see a bit better service since
things won't take so long to finish as they formerly did.
Q What else can we expect from the new contacts we will make.
A. Well, some of them will join the TSA. Many of them will contribute
trip reports and cave reports and articles and other submissions to The
TEXAS CAVER for your reading enjoyment, swelling its pages. They will become
a part of our inner caving community instead or remaining out of it. And
they will contribute to our overall enjoyment of caving, standing around
campfires, and reading The TEXAS CAVER.
Q. Would it be realistic to expect more issues of The CAVER?
A. Actually, it would be realistic to expect that the editor could
publish any time he'd accumulated enough information to make up an
issue--not necessarily on a fixed schedule. In fact, the raw information
could be made available as it is gathered and processed and cavers could
watch the miracle of publication progress before their very eyes. And
possible inspire them to submit some article themselves.
This is the first time I've actually enumerated these ideas so they may be
somewhat crudely developed, but the basic idea of what is possible should be
contained within this writing. The two most important things to be gained
are 1) identifying and getting The TEXAS CAVER into the hands of non-TSA
cavers and 2) getting them to participate in the TSA. Neither of those will
happen if we don't do something. There are, I'm sure, details which I've not
considered. But the underlying concept should make for a better, cheaper
system for producing and distributing The TEXAS CAVER and other TSA
periodical-type publications. It should contribute to a broadening of both a
Texas caver base and TSA membership and participation. It should satisfy
those cavers who justifiably prefer a hard copy CAVER supplied by the TSA.
And it should result in the TSA having more money and human resources to put
toward the realization of its aims and purposes. And, on the face of it, I
can't identify even one reason to justify not doing it, at least somehow,
along the general pattern I have presented here. There is just no down side.
In the interest of Texas caving,
I thank you for your time and consideration,
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gill, why not simply put it on the webpage, with an optional form to
fill out name, location, contact info, etc. The information should be
free to all, the more people who get it, read it, the better. If
people have to jump through hoops, it could possibly scare a few off.
Getting the information out there into the hands of potential new
members and cavers.
Everyone is worried about spam, we have plenty and will only get more.
If you are worried about people getting your email address out of a
PDF, then don't put it into the PDF, its that simple.
Contact info in the TC should point to the website contact page, it's
just that simple, no more worries about spam.
Sometimes it is really best to keep things simple, especially when
trying to attract new members.
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it
>> will be available on the front page.
>
> That would not be good. But it would not be not good because of the reason
> being discussed here--spam, etc. There's another...
> Now I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna tell you then I'm gonna tell you
> why--two paragraphs.
> The process should be some variation of this:
> Cavers can get 'invited to subscribe' to The TEXAS CAVER by any of
> several means--from the TSA or Grotto Home Pages, at Grotto meetings, the
> TSA convention, TCR, from fellow cavers, from handouts at projects such as
> CBSP, Gov Canyon, Punkin & Deep, etc, or basically any way and place that
> cavers get together.
> Then, the caver will go to the link on the TSA web site and navigate to
> the Subscribe to The TEXAS CAVER button.
> Then, the caver will be asked for some vital information such as name,
> address, etc, NSS number, Grotto affiliation (or independent), and maybe
> even personal info such as family member names (which are mostly for photo
> identification purposes, not for publication, etc), age, years caving, and a
> brief caving bio, and the all important email address (which does not have
> to be the caver's primary one). Most of this info will be voluntary.
> Basically all that will be needed is a name and an email address and a
> password.
> The caver will also be asked to furnish a password for accessing his or
> her own personal subscription information.
> Then, whenever a new CAVER is ready to mail (or some breaking TSA
> caver-worthy news) the caver will be sent a message telling him or her to go
> access his or her subscription account, and to download a free digital copy
> of whatever is being offered--TEXAS CAVER or whatever. There could be some
> restrictions as to which publications can be downloaded without being a TSA
> member, such as a Members Manual, meeting minutes, etc.
> Then, they can download it and print it out in any way they choose,
> archiving the digital copy for posterity, and getting back to doing whatever
> they were doing before--or maybe read The CAVER.
> The mechanics of that process are not too hard to visualize--I hope. But
> there are some questions, I'm sure. So here are a few 'whys' to dispel some
> of um.
> Q. Why require a subscription?
> A. Because what we really want is to know who is this subscriber is and
> where they fit in the Texas caving scene. Basically we are trying to
> identify all the cavers in Texas so we can keep in contact with
> them--ostensibly through the auspices of The TEXAS CAVER--and influence them
> and they us. "We will give you a free CAVER if you will be a part of our
> 'extended' TSA caving fraternity. This is a bribe from us to know who you
> are and that you are one of us--even though you may have been hiding for
> many years because you felt that the TSA doesn't care about you--doesn't
> want you to be a part of their elite group without you getting involved in
> their political intrigues" or any other reasons you may have.
> Q, How does this help the TSA?
> A. The subscription gives the TSA a database for contacting outside
> cavers (not just TSA members) about important issues such as cave
> conservation, caver functions, projects, conventions, TCR and other events
> that cavers would be interested in. It also restricts (somewhat) the
> distribution of errant issues on the open market. That's not to say that I
> couldn't just print out 40 copies via my download and hand them out at
> Walgreens. It also provides a larger man-power base of both leaders and
> followers which will obviously contribute to projects, training,
> participation, writing articles, and a general contribution to more and
> better caving.
> Q. How will my email address be protected?
> A. The subscriber list will be maintained as a database, pretty much
> entirely electronically. The database, or selected fields, at least, should
> be available to subscribers as a caver service. Subscribers could elect to
> not make their email address and certain other fields visible. Also, certain
> low tech schemes such as embedding the letters 'TSA' into each email address
> to be manually removed by the end user could offer some degree of security,
> but probably not worth it.
> Q. Will a Members Manual be published?
> A. A hard copy Members Manual is a handy reference for cavers who travel
> great distances to visit caves and caving events. But, as the Members Manual
> is a TSA list, perhaps only TSA members could be allowed to download it.
> That would provide incentive to join TSA. Properly loaded, a Members Manual
> could be available for downloading just like The TEXAS CAVER. Again,
> subscribers can elect to have their sensitive data available for viewing or
> printing.
> Q. How do we keep just anybody from accessing and printing out a copy of The
> CAVER or Member's Manual?
> A. Well, basically we can't. I can print one for my brother-in-law and he
> can leave it laying in the break room at work for anybody to see. Just like
> a hard copy could be. But the subscription process will help and will at
> least let us track who is subscribing--which should be valuable information,
> in it's own right, for an organization dedicated to conservation and safety,
> at least.
> Q. How will the hard copy subscribers be handled?
> A. When subscribing to receive The TEXAS CAVER, a subscriber can elect
> from any of 3 options: 1) To receive free digital TEXAS CAVER downloads (and
> other selected publications and notices). 2) To receive both a digital
> notification for downloading and a hard copy of any (again, selected)
> publications. 3) To receive one or more hard copies from TSA via USPS at a
> proscribed rate to cover production and mailing costs. A 4th option, which
> should probably come first, would be to join the TSA as a dues paying member
> with voting and other privileges, hopefully stated somewhere.
> Q. Who will tend to the hard copy printing and mailing business?
> A. Traditionally the editor had a major hand in that, often doing it
> all--printing, collating, binding, labeling, sorting, mailing, paying, and
> dealing with returns, address changes, etc. At time there were helpers for
> any or most of those tasks. I suspect that with the lighter load, the editor
> can easily handle it all. But the door will still be open for volunteers to
> pitch in. Hard copy subscribers will probably see a bit better service since
> things won't take so long to finish as they formerly did.
> Q What else can we expect from the new contacts we will make.
> A. Well, some of them will join the TSA. Many of them will contribute
> trip reports and cave reports and articles and other submissions to The
> TEXAS CAVER for your reading enjoyment, swelling its pages. They will become
> a part of our inner caving community instead or remaining out of it. And
> they will contribute to our overall enjoyment of caving, standing around
> campfires, and reading The TEXAS CAVER.
> Q. Would it be realistic to expect more issues of The CAVER?
> A. Actually, it would be realistic to expect that the editor could
> publish any time he'd accumulated enough information to make up an
> issue--not necessarily on a fixed schedule. In fact, the raw information
> could be made available as it is gathered and processed and cavers could
> watch the miracle of publication progress before their very eyes. And
> possible inspire them to submit some article themselves.
> This is the first time I've actually enumerated these ideas so they may be
> somewhat crudely developed, but the basic idea of what is possible should be
> contained within this writing. The two most important things to be gained
> are 1) identifying and getting The TEXAS CAVER into the hands of non-TSA
> cavers and 2) getting them to participate in the TSA. Neither of those will
> happen if we don't do something. There are, I'm sure, details which I've not
> considered. But the underlying concept should make for a better, cheaper
> system for producing and distributing The TEXAS CAVER and other TSA
> periodical-type publications. It should contribute to a broadening of both a
> Texas caver base and TSA membership and participation. It should satisfy
> those cavers who justifiably prefer a hard copy CAVER supplied by the TSA.
> And it should result in the TSA having more money and human resources to put
> toward the realization of its aims and purposes. And, on the face of it, I
> can't identify even one reason to justify not doing it, at least somehow,
> along the general pattern I have presented here. There is just no down side.
> In the interest of Texas caving,
> I thank you for your time and consideration,
> --Ediger
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>wrote:
> Gill, why not simply put it on the webpage, with an optional form to
> fill out name, location, contact info, etc. The information should be
> free to all, the more people who get it, read it, the better. If
> people have to jump through hoops, it could possibly scare a few off.
> Getting the information out there into the hands of potential new
> members and cavers.
>
Yes, basically right. But getting them information is only half of the
goal.
We want their info as well. We want to identify them. They are our target
cavers--the ones we want to encourage to not only go caving safely but to
join the TSA, the NSS, and to become an active part of the great unwashed
caver community--not rogue warriors in the caving world. So, we need their
information and we need to keep in touch with them. The hassle of filling
out a subscription (which can be minimal) is itself a small filter to weed
out trivial inquiries. We want accountability from both ends.
>
> Everyone is worried about spam, we have plenty and will only get more.
> If you are worried about people getting your email address out of a
> PDF, then don't put it into the PDF, its that simple.
>
I personally am not worried about hard copy (such as pdf) lists being
snagged for spam. Manually transcribing them is a bit more effort, though
not a whole lot. It's the electronic files which can be manipulated in the
computer to harvest email addresses that I don't want to see posted. Again,
I guess they could be hidden.
> Contact info in the TC should point to the website contact page, it's
> just that simple, no more worries about spam.
>
Yes
> Sometimes it is really best to keep things simple, especially when
> trying to attract new members.
>
> I'm OK with simple. Just keep in mind OUR needs from them and don't cut us
off short from the value we place on our target audience.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles,
I agree with your technical comments about the many ways that malware can be
used to harvest email addresses and other data and that there is no way to
protect an email address 100% while using it for its normal purpose. That
doesn't imply, however, that there is no point in trying reduce risk. Listening
to a computer professional say "Your email addresses aren't safe anywhere, so
why bother trying to protect them?" is like listening to restaurant cook say
"You're not safe from germs anywhere, so why bother washing hands or dishes?"
Like many email users, I've been using 2 email addresses for a number of years.
I've used both of them frequently, but one I've tried to keep away from
potential spam risks wherever practical and the other I've given out more
freely. Of the two, the more protected one remained spam free much longer
(about the first 2 years), and even after it began receiving spam, the quantity
of spam received on the more protected address has remained conspicuously less
than that received on the less protected address. This difference has remained
noticeable even though I have used the more protected address frequently on
Texascavers and for communication with numerous individuals.
Someone with a much more carefully guarded email address still should be able
to use it very safely in limited ways on caving related Internet services, as
long as the people running those services practice reasonable privacy policies.
For example, someone can subscribe to Texascavers without exposing his email
address to everyone on the list as long as he only uses the subscription to
receive messages from Texascavers, without ever posting to it (assuming, of
course, that you don't change your policy and start allowing users to download
the Texascavers address list).
Similarly, TSA could serve its online users much more safely if it simply
separated the email address list used for online registration from that
published in a "members manual". With this convention, a member could be
assured that the email address he uses for online registration will be used
only for that purpose and for "official" email sent to him by TSA and that this
address would NOT automatically appear on any list made available to the
general membership. For his listing in a "members manual" style list, each
member could specify separately what, if any, email address he wants published.
This would allow each user to choose whether to publish the same email address,
a different (less protected) address, or none at all.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>
>Sent: Dec 15, 2009 4:09 PM
>To: Rod Goke <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>
>Rod, that wasn't a personal attack, if you took it as such, you need
>to re-read my message and think about how it was meant.
>
>The TSA having this list is no different than the NSS keeping a list
>of its members, and sending that list out in book format, plain and
>simple.
>
>Harvesting emails from a mailing list is very very simple, I have the
>complete list as owner of the list, but even another list, I can
>harvest with a simple script that would only take me a few minutes to
>write.
>
>It was a tongue in cheek comment about writing down email addresses by
>hand. Scammers/Spammers/Phishers don't do anything manually.
>
>Modern email applications cache email addresses that it sees, Malware
>can and does use these lists to send out spam. We've seen it recently
>on the mailing list.
>
>Your email address is not safe anywhere, you will just have to learn
>to face that fact in this modern age.
>
>Charles
>
>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Charles,
>>
>> Your message below really misses the the point, and your personal attacks
>> are totally unwarranted. Of course, we all run some risk that our email
>> addresses will somehow get to spammers whenever we send them to anyone.
>> Whenever you or I or anyone else posts a message to Texascavers we
>> understand that our email addresses will be visible to others on the list,
>> and we choose to do that. Harvesting email addresses one at a time from
>> postings to this list as you suggested would be possible, of course, but it
>> would be a slow and inconvenient way to collect a large list for spam, and I
>> don't think either of us is seriously worried about that.
>>
>> The primary hazard is not that anyone in TSA or other caving organizations
>> will deliberately pass information to spammers, but rather that some people
>> downloading information with good intentions will inadvertently store it
>> where spyware or other malware on an infected computer can search the
>> downloaded files for email addresses, phone numbers, or other information
>> that writers of the malware wish to harvest. This is something that easily
>> can happen, and when it does, the person making information available to the
>> malware might be totally unaware of what is going on. When people download
>> individual email messages or other data items containing only a few email
>> addresses or other sensitive items, then only those few items are vulnerable
>> to harvesting by malware in any one incident. When people download an entire
>> mailing list, however, then just one incident on one inadvertently infected
>> computer can result in harvesting of the entire list. When many people
>> download the list to many different computers, the risk to everyone on the
>> list increases accordingly.
>>
>> So far as I know, the subscribers to Texascavers are not allowed to download
>> that entire email address list, and I trust that Texascavers will continue
>> to be managed in this responsible manner, especially since I haven't noticed
>> any demand to do otherwise. The discussions I've heard and read about the
>> TSA's online data resources, however, create much more uncertainty about how
>> they will be managed. This is why it is important to have serious
>> discussions of the issues beforehand to prevent problems, especially when
>> some of them could be prevented so easily with a few minor policy decisions.
>>
>> Rod
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>
>>>Sent: Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM
>>>To: Rod Goke <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>>Cc: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>, John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>,
>>>Mark Alman <mark.al...@l-3com.com>, TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>
>>>Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over 360
>>>people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could
>>>harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of who
>>>posted an email to this list.
>>>
>>>Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that
>>>one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA"
>>>people, who are duly elected by some of these people.
>>>
>>>If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it
>>>will be available on the front page.
>>>
>>>Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad
>>>press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA.
>>>
>>>Charles
>>>
>>>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA
>>>> membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think
>>>> that Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the
>>>> dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I
>>>> blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the
>>>> filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they
>>>> don't even have my email address? ;-) )
>>>>
>>>> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle our
>>>> email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA already
>>>> has placed an online listing of its electronically registered members on
>>>> its password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent proposal to
>>>> make online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers. Neither of
>>>> these things necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA members'
>>>> email addresses when considered separately (although I still would rather
>>>> not have my email address on even a members-only password protected online
>>>> list). When both of these things are considered together, however, along
>>>> with all the other turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it is
>>>> easy to imagine how people might provide their email addresses to TSA
>>>> assuming one seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover later
>>>> that TSA has changed its mind and has made the email address list more
>>>> widely accessible than people had expected when they provided their
>>>> addresses.
>>>>
>>>> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted
>>>> people to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just telling
>>>> us "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA simply
>>>> would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address will
>>>> be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in" for
>>>> inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for website
>>>> access without having their email addresses published in an online list.
>>>>
>>>> Rod
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
>>>>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
>>>>>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>>
>>>>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just
>>>>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
>>>>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who
>>>>>are very much appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
>>>>>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers"
>>>>><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>>>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail
>>>>>> messages per WEEK.
>>>>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the
>>>>>> TSA
>>>>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems
>>>>>> fair or reasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rod,
>>>>>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
>>>>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam
>>>>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me
>>>>>> figure
>>>>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of
>>>>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the
>>>>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that
>>>>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of
>>>>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in
>>>>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
>>>>>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>>>>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
>>>>>> reminds me of a related issue:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
>>>>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this
>>>>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with
>>>>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in
>>>>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email
>>>>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The
>>>>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper
>>>>>> form,
>>>>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be
>>>>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
>>>>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
>>>>>> publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of
>>>>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've
>>>>>> heard
>>>>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information
>>>>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap
>>>>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it
>>>>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to
>>>>>> automated
>>>>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our
>>>>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a
>>>>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to
>>>>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards
>>>>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital
>>>>>> publication of email addresses
>>>>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rod
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the home page: http://cavetexas.org/index.html of the TSA website
there's a note to prospective members who might like a copy to e-mail the
editor for such. I don't know if anyone has ever done this (asked for a
copy) but it's available from that note.
Butch Fralia
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:49 PM
To: Gill Edigar
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Officer's powers
Well Said Gill
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
> An observation--
> Officers are elected to run the day-to-day operations of companies,
> organizations, governments, and other such groups of people in lieu of
> having a council or committee mico-managing the trivial details. They are
> expected to make certain decisions on behalf of the organization without
> consulting the entire membership or executive council or board of
governors.
> For instance, they would be expected to go buy a roll of tape or box of
> staples if they were needed for the conduct of business. Likewise, if a
> special mailing were required for a safety alert or an election they could
> conceivably be expected to spend $100 on postage stamps to see the mailing
> got to the members--without asking anybody. That is their job. Along that
> same train of thought, I would suggest that if the Chairman and newsletter
> editor decided to send out free digital copies as advertising to
prospective
> new members of the various college clubs they would have it completely
> within their powers to do so--and be praised for their aggressiveness--and
> need to ask no one's permission. Indeed, there is a long and respected
> history of the TSA doing just that. No board action would be necessary--or
> even expected, for that matter. Especially if no expenditures were
> required.
> Now then, I'm not a TSA member so I would never presume to tell the TSA
how
> to conduct its business. I'm merely speaking as an independent Texas caver
> bystander and interested observer. So, I have been both TSA Chairman and
> TEXAS CAVER editor on more than one occasion over the years. I would
presume
> that most Texas cavers would suspect that I have a bit of experience with
> officer power and responsibilities and how they can get things
> constitutionally accomplished. Believe me, creativity can be a valuable
tool
> in the running of a volunteer organization. Both Davy Crockett and Sam
> Houston used to proclaim, "Be sure you're right and then go ahead." No
> officer will ever be chastised by the membership for handing out free
> advertising supporting the aims and goals of the organization and
> encouraging membership. It is the right thing to do. And no other current
> advertising brochure will fulfill that function better than a free digital
> copy of The TEXAS CAVER sent (or made available) to all non-TSA-member NSS
> cavers in Texas. So now, they can go ahead. No board action is required.
It
> is an officer responsibility. I'm looking forward to seeing old Sam and
Davy
> crack a smile over this one.
> --Ediger
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah. It's been our practice--from the '70s at least to mail one to any
caver who moves to Texas. We used to get a monthly mailing from the NSS with
all the address changes. For a while we sent some surplus copies to Grottos
to hand out to newbies. It definitely got some new members.
--Ediger
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Butch Fralia
<bfra...@maverickgrotto.org>wrote:
> On the home page: http://cavetexas.org/index.html of the TSA website
> there's a note to prospective members who might like a copy to e-mail the
> editor for such. I don't know if anyone has ever done this (asked for a
> copy) but it's available from that note.
>
> Butch Fralia
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:49 PM
> To: Gill Edigar
> Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Officer's powers
>
> Well Said Gill
>
> Charles
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
> > An observation--
> > Officers are elected to run the day-to-day operations of companies,
> > organizations, governments, and other such groups of people in lieu of
> > having a council or committee mico-managing the trivial details. They are
> > expected to make certain decisions on behalf of the organization without
> > consulting the entire membership or executive council or board of
> governors.
> > For instance, they would be expected to go buy a roll of tape or box of
> > staples if they were needed for the conduct of business. Likewise, if a
> > special mailing were required for a safety alert or an election they
> could
> > conceivably be expected to spend $100 on postage stamps to see the
> mailing
> > got to the members--without asking anybody. That is their job. Along that
> > same train of thought, I would suggest that if the Chairman and
> newsletter
> > editor decided to send out free digital copies as advertising to
> prospective
> > new members of the various college clubs they would have it completely
> > within their powers to do so--and be praised for their
> aggressiveness--and
> > need to ask no one's permission. Indeed, there is a long and respected
> > history of the TSA doing just that. No board action would be
> necessary--or
> > even expected, for that matter. Especially if no expenditures were
> > required.
> > Now then, I'm not a TSA member so I would never presume to tell the TSA
> how
> > to conduct its business. I'm merely speaking as an independent Texas
> caver
> > bystander and interested observer. So, I have been both TSA Chairman and
> > TEXAS CAVER editor on more than one occasion over the years. I would
> presume
> > that most Texas cavers would suspect that I have a bit of experience with
> > officer power and responsibilities and how they can get things
> > constitutionally accomplished. Believe me, creativity can be a valuable
> tool
> > in the running of a volunteer organization. Both Davy Crockett and Sam
> > Houston used to proclaim, "Be sure you're right and then go ahead." No
> > officer will ever be chastised by the membership for handing out free
> > advertising supporting the aims and goals of the organization and
> > encouraging membership. It is the right thing to do. And no other current
> > advertising brochure will fulfill that function better than a free
> digital
> > copy of The TEXAS CAVER sent (or made available) to all non-TSA-member
> NSS
> > cavers in Texas. So now, they can go ahead. No board action is required.
> It
> > is an officer responsibility. I'm looking forward to seeing old Sam and
> Davy
> > crack a smile over this one.
> > --Ediger
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This came to me and I think it was meant for someone else (in Australia) and
maybe if someone knows who it might be and could forward it on to them.
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: nambal ban bemo
To: webmas...@caver.net
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:44 PM
Subject: speloo greeting
speleo greeting,
hi_______
I'M Nabeel, indonesian.
glad to know you as a caver.
I know you from the site of west australian cave assosiation.
in Indonesia, I'M living in a karst area of java island.there are many karst
cave around my home.
and I had some speleological research (cave maping: exspecially),or event just
havin' fun exploring some cave.
any way, I hope you (and your team) are interested in researching some cave in
indonesian karst.
and if you are, I (and my team) would like to welcome and support your
conservative cave project in our country.
you just for now need to tell me some information, everything, you want me to
send you by e-mail, and I would like to.
alright, I'M waiting you send your e-mail back to me.
I hope this e-mail isn't a waste of your time.
last, I bet you're expecting of exploring in indonesia.
thn'x
(sory for my bad english)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kunjungi halaman depan Yahoo! Indonesia yang baru!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just learned a few minutes ago, that an old caving friend
of mine from Texas A&M had passed away a few years ago.
His name was Mason Estes.
He made a trip to Huautla in 1987, but most of his caving was
with the A.S.S. to caves near Bustamante, and west Texas.
I will try to find an obituary, or get more details.
If you knew any Aggie cavers back around 1986, he was the
one with the deep froggy voice.
His passion was rock-climbing, and that got him interested
in caving.
--- End Message ---
