texascavers Digest 26 Jan 2010 01:13:39 -0000 Issue 952
Topics (messages 13376 through 13393):
Chicxulub?
13376 by: bmorgan994.aol.com
Re: Robber Baron - fall 1987
13377 by: Geary Schindel
Re: CBD Petition to close caves - Msg from NSS WNS Liaison
13378 by: Gill Edigar
mysterious roadcut geology
13379 by: Mixon Bill
13387 by: Josh Rubinstein
Re: cave like house.....
13380 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
13381 by: Ryan Monjaras
caving and insurance
13382 by: David
13383 by: Ryan Monjaras
13385 by: Gill Edigar
13386 by: Brian Riordan
13391 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
Re: Ongoing rescue in Mexico -- Final report
13384 by: Fofo
San Antonio sinkholes..
13388 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
13389 by: Geary Schindel
Re: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving
13390 by: Gill Edigar
13392 by: Jim Evatt
13393 by: Stephen Fleming
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--- Begin Message ---
Some years ago while working in Cancun I observed a strange and
inexplicable limestone breccia formation that occurred in botanically
interesting
shallow surface pans, but not elsewhere. It was a 4" to 12" thick surface
layer of hard white fossiliferous limestone filled with jagged clastic chunks
of what looks like gray dolomite to me. The whole thing screamed high energy
ejecta, no rounded edges on the inclusions, and the inclusions rarely
touch each other. It looks like the kind of thing you would associate with a
violent volcanic mudflow, or an extraterrestrial impact as in Kaboom! Sploosh!
I ran it up the TAGnet flagpole in 2007 and got several interesting
responses from geologists but no definitive answers. Everyone agreed that high
energy was involved, i.e., no progressive sorting, just one big event. “
Calichification” could possibly explain why it is so much harder and more
resistant than the underlying limestone, but what of the chunks? One person
suggested reef facies and hurricanes, but that is not how it looks to me.
Another suggested calcite cementation around breakdown in a sinkhole, but there
is no evidence of that. The elephant in the room is Chicxulub, but isn’t all
that a kilometer underground? What exactly is the age of the surface
deposits in the Yucatan?
Now Jim Conrad, who lives in the Yucatan and writes the wise and wonderful
Naturalist Newsletter (Subscribe at:
_http://www.backyardnature.net/news/natnat.php_
(http://www.backyardnature.net/news/natnat.php) ) has observed
something similar in a roadcut near Chichen Itza, evidence of gratuitous
limestone violence! It is all a great mystery!
Y’all GeoTexicans are the ones I should have asked in the first place. I
kept some of the mystery rocks and have just taken macro photos. Shoot me an
email and I will send my photos, Jim’s photo, and all my notes and
responses for your analysis. The consensus thus far is that the shallow pans
where
these strange rocks occur are actually alien landing pads. That would also
explain the Mayans. Alternative explanations would be appreciated.
Sleazeweazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember that you needed good shocks in the car or you would jump tracks when
you hit a big bump. The other down side to 8 tracks is the only tapes I've
seen for sale at yard sales lately is KC and the Sunshine Band.
G
From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill
Edigar
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:11 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Robber Baron - fall 1987
I have one, still mounted in my old GMC with 31 Mexican tourist stickers on it,
which plays both 4-track (the precursor to the 8-track and full-brother to the
"carts"--cartridges that radio stations used for recording and playing canned
ads) and 8-track tape cartridges. All that came just before cassettes which
precluded CDs, etc. No matter what the medium it was still just music.
--Ediger
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:33 PM, George-Paul Richmann
<gprichm...@gmail.com<mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
What's an 8 track?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Cheryl Jones <cheryl.ca...@verizon.net>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:00 AM
Subject: CBD Petition to close caves - Msg from NSS WNS Liaison
To: siv...@listserv.vt.edu
Received: Sat, 23 Jan 2010
From: Peter Youngbaer
ALERT
A national organization, the Center for Biological Diversity, has filed
emergency petitions that would radically affect access to caves in the
continental United States, and more. In the press release are links to
their formal petitions. Please take the time to fully read the petitions,
especially the first, which deals most directly with cave access.
In brief, they have petitioned the federal government to close all caves and
mines on federal lands within the continental U.S., designating all caves
and mines on federal land within the continental United States as
"significant", promulgate a new rule defining "taking" under the Endangered
Species Act that would ban traveling between any caves on public or private
land, making both cavers and landowners legally liable; and adding two bat
species - Eastern Small-footed, and Northern Long-eared - to the federal
Endangered Species list. They cite White Nose Syndrome (WNS) as the reason
for doing all of this.
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2010/bats-01-21-2010.html
As the WNS Liaison for the NSS, I believe this is an extremely serious
threat from a well-funded and litigious organization, and should be
responded to at all levels, including by cave conservancies as
organizations. I shudder to think of the possible conservation
ramifications: sealing of caves by blasting, bulldozing, refilling sinkholes
with rubbish that we worked so hard to pull out, groundwater pollution,
vandalism, long-established collaborative relationships with landowners and
agencies, and ironically, the destruction of cave habitat.
I strongly suggest a prompt and professional response, sending any
correspondence to pertinent parties at the Center for Biological Diversity
and IMPORTANTLY to the federal officials to whom they sent petitions. Those
federal officials are listed within the petitions. The key CBD personnel
are:
Mollie Matteson, Conservation Advocate, author of the material:
_mmatteson@biologicaldiversity.org_
Kieran Suckling, Executive Director and founder:
_ksuckling@biologicaldiversity.org_
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Peter Youngbaer
NSS WNS Liaison
youngba...@aol.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's what Jim Conrad posted in his Naturalist Newsletter about the
roadcut breccia that Bruce Morgan was asking about. It includes a link
to a photograph. -- Mixon
MYSTERIOUS ROADCUT
Each week when I hike to Pisté to buy fruit, on Hwy
180 between Mérida and Cancún and about half a mile
from the center of the ruins of Chichén Itzá, I pass
within ten feet of the roadcut through limestone seen
at http://www.backyardnature.net/n/10/100124rx.jpg
That's a vertical section of the roadcut about six
feet high. Note the weeds at the lower right for
scale.
About 65 millions years ago the entire Yucatan
Peninsula was covered by sea, as was much of the US
Southeastern Coastal Plain. At that time, at the end
of the Cretaceous Period, an object from space at
least six-miles wide (10 km) crashed into the sea at a
spot now located -- after the Yucatan Peninsula has
risen above sea level -- a few miles off the Yucatan's
northwestern coast. The crater caused by that impact,
today known as the Chicxulub Crater, was about 112
miles in diameter (180 kms). The Wikipedia page
describing the Chicxulub Crater is at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater
Long after the crater was formed, during the Oligocene
about 25 million years ago, this part of the Yucatan
Peninsula began rising, pushed upwards by forces from
within the Earth. What earlier had been the carbonate-
rich mud of the ocean floor, and limestone rock below
it lithified from that mud, gradually rose and kept
rising until today it stands above sea level, but not
by much. During those millions of years ocean currents
gradually buried the Chicxulub Crater beneath mud that
eventually hardened into limestone rock. Today if you
stand where earlier the crater was formed, you'll see
no signs of a crater at all. It's all buried beneath
limestone deposited since the impact 65 million years
ago. At Chichén Itzá we're well outside the crater's
former location, but close enough for the ocean floor
here to have been very disrupted.
The mysterious thing about the roadcut is that what
you see there suggests a great deal of turmoil.
Sediment deposited in calm, seabed conditions is
finely grained and the layering is even. The picture
shows very uneven layering, some layers tilted and
others not, and fragments of fractured rock appear to
be embedded in what once was flowing mud. Maybe
there's even a near-vertical fault cutting across the
layers at the picture's right. I've seen layering like
this in ancient mudflows beside volcanoes, but never
in limestone areas that have been as geologically
quiet as this one -- quiet since the Chicxulub Crater
was formed. In fact, I can't think of anything in the
Yucatan Peninsula's geological history that could
have created such a story of geological turmoil
as this picture suggests, except the Chicxulub Impact.
It seems that if such a wonderful exhibition of the
effects of the Chicxulub Impact were known, it'd
appear at websites dealing with the event -- would
even be an important tourist attraction. The Chicxulub
Impact, after all, is often regarded as having killed
off the dinosaurs worldwide, thus enabling mammals to
begin their evolutionary ascendancy, eventually making
possible humanity.
Is there anyone out there who can confirm that what's
in the picture is or is not evidence of the Chicxulub
Impact?
----------------------------------------
A bore is a person who talks when you wish him to listen.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
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--- Begin Message ---
I'll take a shot at this. My guess from one photo is that this a ball and
pillow structure. These are caused by slumping or landslides
particularly in submarine environments where denser material slides down
slope on saturated less dense material. As seen in the photo, such
structures are rounded and wrapped in softer beds. The structure in the
photo is further deformed by a thrust fault and a beautiful drag fold where
the bed is turned over on itself. Pillow structures and localized thrust
faulting are not uncommon. Neat site.
thanks,
Josh
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>wrote:
> Here's what Jim Conrad posted in his Naturalist Newsletter about the
> roadcut breccia that Bruce Morgan was asking about. It includes a link to a
> photograph. -- Mixon
>
> MYSTERIOUS ROADCUT
> Each week when I hike to Pisté to buy fruit, on Hwy
> 180 between Mérida and Cancún and about half a mile
> from the center of the ruins of Chichén Itzá, I pass
> within ten feet of the roadcut through limestone seen
> at http://www.backyardnature.net/n/10/100124rx.jpg
>
> That's a vertical section of the roadcut about six
> feet high. Note the weeds at the lower right for
> scale.
>
> About 65 millions years ago the entire Yucatan
> Peninsula was covered by sea, as was much of the US
> Southeastern Coastal Plain. At that time, at the end
> of the Cretaceous Period, an object from space at
> least six-miles wide (10 km) crashed into the sea at a
> spot now located -- after the Yucatan Peninsula has
> risen above sea level -- a few miles off the Yucatan's
> northwestern coast. The crater caused by that impact,
> today known as the Chicxulub Crater, was about 112
> miles in diameter (180 kms). The Wikipedia page
> describing the Chicxulub Crater is at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater
>
> Long after the crater was formed, during the Oligocene
> about 25 million years ago, this part of the Yucatan
> Peninsula began rising, pushed upwards by forces from
> within the Earth. What earlier had been the carbonate-
> rich mud of the ocean floor, and limestone rock below
> it lithified from that mud, gradually rose and kept
> rising until today it stands above sea level, but not
> by much. During those millions of years ocean currents
> gradually buried the Chicxulub Crater beneath mud that
> eventually hardened into limestone rock. Today if you
> stand where earlier the crater was formed, you'll see
> no signs of a crater at all. It's all buried beneath
> limestone deposited since the impact 65 million years
> ago. At Chichén Itzá we're well outside the crater's
> former location, but close enough for the ocean floor
> here to have been very disrupted.
>
> The mysterious thing about the roadcut is that what
> you see there suggests a great deal of turmoil.
> Sediment deposited in calm, seabed conditions is
> finely grained and the layering is even. The picture
> shows very uneven layering, some layers tilted and
> others not, and fragments of fractured rock appear to
> be embedded in what once was flowing mud. Maybe
> there's even a near-vertical fault cutting across the
> layers at the picture's right. I've seen layering like
> this in ancient mudflows beside volcanoes, but never
> in limestone areas that have been as geologically
> quiet as this one -- quiet since the Chicxulub Crater
> was formed. In fact, I can't think of anything in the
> Yucatan Peninsula's geological history that could
> have created such a story of geological turmoil
> as this picture suggests, except the Chicxulub Impact.
>
> It seems that if such a wonderful exhibition of the
> effects of the Chicxulub Impact were known, it'd
> appear at websites dealing with the event -- would
> even be an important tourist attraction. The Chicxulub
> Impact, after all, is often regarded as having killed
> off the dinosaurs worldwide, thus enabling mammals to
> begin their evolutionary ascendancy, eventually making
> possible humanity.
>
> Is there anyone out there who can confirm that what's
> in the picture is or is not evidence of the Chicxulub
> Impact?
> ----------------------------------------
> A bore is a person who talks when you wish him to listen.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Es para los ricos.. no es para los pobres.
Jan 22, 2010 06:17:11 PM, muviduder...@hotmail.com wrote:
it reminds me of the bag end from "the hobbit"
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:33:50 -0800
From: jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] cave like house.....
|
Here is an interesting cave like house.... |
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
at the end of the hobbit bilbo was rich
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 14:56:26 -0600
From: tbsam...@verizon.net
To: muviduder...@hotmail.com
CC: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers] cave like house.....
Es para los ricos.. no es para los pobres.
Jan 22, 2010 06:17:11 PM, muviduder...@hotmail.com wrote:
it reminds me of the bag end from "the hobbit"
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:33:50 -0800
From: jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] cave like house.....
http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/8827/search-and-cma-villa-vals.html
Here is an interesting cave like house....
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
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--- Begin Message ---
When I was in college ( mid 80's ), if we wanted to go on a caving
trip, our biggest issue
was where to find someone with a car.
It seems now, all college kids have cars, but their big issue seems to
be dealing with red tape.
According to the web-site below, students who participate in
"dangerous activities like camping" are required to purchase "special
event medical insurance."
http://ss.utpb.edu/student-life/student-travel/
I doubt we ever tried to get the university to loan us a van. That
idea either never crossed our minds, or we could not have imagined
them loaning it to us. Years later, I saw the A.S.S.
with a university van parked near the entrance of Palmito up above the
town of Bustamante.
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thats only if its a student organization like the geology club, but if an
individual student wants to go to CBSP then that persons regular insurance
would cover it if that person got injured
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:40:21 -0600
> From: dlocklea...@gmail.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] caving and insurance
>
> When I was in college ( mid 80's ), if we wanted to go on a caving
> trip, our biggest issue
> was where to find someone with a car.
>
> It seems now, all college kids have cars, but their big issue seems to
> be dealing with red tape.
>
> According to the web-site below, students who participate in
> "dangerous activities like camping" are required to purchase "special
> event medical insurance."
>
> http://ss.utpb.edu/student-life/student-travel/
>
> I doubt we ever tried to get the university to loan us a van. That
> idea either never crossed our minds, or we could not have imagined
> them loaning it to us. Years later, I saw the A.S.S.
> with a university van parked near the entrance of Palmito up above the
> town of Bustamante.
>
> David Locklear
>
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Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Ryan Monjaras <muviduder...@hotmail.com>wrote:
> thats only if its a student organization like the geology club, but if an
> individual student wants to go to CBSP then that persons regular insurance
> would cover it if that person got injured
>
How would a student organization like the geology club be different from a
student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that so long as
it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be considered to be an
individual caver--not a club member?
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I distinctly recall having ASS meetings where we talked about caves
that individuals COULD go to if they had the correct permission. And
then "after" the meeting, someone would let it slip that they had
information where that was, and invite all their friends... Who of
course happened to be at the meeting. I think we were vaguely aware
of some sort of red tape we might encounter if we officially invited
people representing ourselves as the organization and not as an
individual. You can't assume people will take responsibility for
their own actions- adult or not.
Waivers were always signed, just in case. I only remember meeting the
faculty advisor once, however, who evidently was the original advisor
in 1977. He never came to a meeting, he'd just sign the club approval
and sponsorship papers once a year- a practice I'm pretty sure that
has been grandfathered in.
-B
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Ryan Monjaras <muviduder...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> thats only if its a student organization like the geology club, but if an
>> individual student wants to go to CBSP then that persons regular insurance
>> would cover it if that person got injured
>
> How would a student organization like the geology club be different from a
> student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that so long as
> it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be considered to be an
> individual caver--not a club member?
> --Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> How would a student organization like the geology club be different
> from a student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that
> so long as it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be
> considered to be an individual caver--not a club member? --Ediger
>
Well ... at Sul Ross (early '70s) I belonged to a Geology Club
sponsored by one geology professor and I belonged to the Cave club
sponsored by another geology professor (our own DirtDoc)
Somethings were the same (meetings) we... Something were different
(trips) ... insurance then ... never heard of it
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good evening.
This is the final report, from To�o Aguirre, chairman of Espeleo Rescate
M�xico (ERM).
- Fofo
-------------------------------------
As you know by now, the decision was made to stop the recovery efforts
in the mine near San Joaqu�n, Quer�taro. This decision was based on the
evaluation performed at the site of the incident.
This is not the first time that such a decision is taken by ERM and it
will surely not be the last time either. Two previous examples are the
Resumidero Oztoquito recovery (Puebla, 2004) after nine days of work,
and in Jashib (Chiapas, 2004), where two kids were trapped inside a cave
and the maneuvers continued for ten days.
We are definitely aware of our technical limits. When the required
actions are outside of our area of expertise we request help. In
Oztoquito (Puebla, 2004) we requested the help from cave divers from the
USA, and in the mine "5 Se�ores" in Guanajuato we requested the help
from deep divers.
Since I consider it fair and necessary and for a better understanding of
why sometimes these decisions are made, I will take a few minutes to
explain the criteria and methodology used:
Analysis of risk vs. benefit:
The decision is taken after identifying the dangers and risks under
which the technicians (rescuers) will work, and evaluating the benefit
that can result from their actions. The analysis considers the general
evaluation of the situation, including the number of patients, their
injuries, possibility of the patient still being alive, etc., to
determine the urgency of the situation.
- A live patient sometimes needs to be taken out as quickly as possible
and this requires a fast response.
- A body recovery doesn't need a quick response.
In the particular case of the mine near San Joaqu�n, the analysis by the
work group determined the following:
Benefit:
1.- Recovery of the bodies and delivery to their families for burial.
The family of the deceased asked that the rescue group not put their
lives in danger for a recovery. They were glad that an effort was made
and they agreed on leaving the bodies inside the mine.
Risks:
1.- Potential severe rockfall. Initially that is what created this
situation, the two brothers were carried down the pit by rockfall. There
was still a big amount of rock close to the pit's edge and it was very
unstable.
2.- Presence of explosives and gunpowder in different places of the
mine. Some people (like the two deceased) continued extracting ore from
the mine with the purpose of selling it, and they used explosives for
that. Inside the mine some dynamite sticks, detonators and gunpowder
sacks were noted. It was unknown if there were more, and if so, their
location and conditions. Also, this extraction after the mine was
abandoned would have weakened the structure of the mine.
3.- The high probability of the bodies being under a thick layer of
rock, and being very damaged by the rockfall, would have made the
recovery very difficult. The initial rockfall happened after part of the
shoring broke, and it is estimated that it involved about 7 cubic meters
(250 cubic feet) of rock, and it is unknown how much more rockfall was
created in lower levels of the pit. Also, the initial recovery efforts
had created more rockfall.
Results of the analysis:
The risk was deemed to be too high for the benefit that could have been
obtained. In light of this, the maneuvers were stopped, even though it
could have been argued that the recovery was possible.
As in most rescues, on top of the technical risks and demands of the
work there was another layer of social and political demands that
directly influenced the effort.
The safety of the ERM rescuers is paramount, so in light of the
previously outlined items, we consider that it was the best decision.
---------------------------------------
Fofo wrote, on 22/1/10 10:40:
Good morning.
This will probably be the last report on this event.
There was a possibility, from the reports heard, that the last pit was a
natural one that the mine had intersected, but there was constant
rockfall from the upper levels.
It was decided to leave the bodies in place, because the risk for the
rescuers was too high.
- Fofo
Fofo wrote, on 20/1/10 23:59:
Good morning.
Here is the latest update from the ongoing rescue in Quer�taro,
M�xico, directly from To�o Aguirre, head of the Mexican Cave Rescue,
Espeleo Rescate M�xico (ERM):
Protecci�n Civil from Queretaro was in charge of the rescue, but they
stopped the recovery. What they said is that they descended 280 meters
(900 ft) and they didn't reach the bottom so they decided to ascend.
That is the version that was transmitted through the Queretaro Red
Cross, and apparently that was their only problem (there were comments
about them having had 'problems,' in plural).
Proteccion Civil Queretaro has officially requested ERM to take over
the operation. The three members of ERM on the spot have not reported
back, they got involved in the effort right away and haven't been able
to send a report.
At 9 am on Thursday a total of 10 members of ERM will leave (5 from
San Luis Potosi, 3 from Morelia, 2 from Mexico City), and they'll be
supported by the Cave Rescue section of the Queretaro Red Cross. They
will evaluate the scene and carefully determine a plan and their
needs. Mine rescues have specific risks that are different from caves.
To�o Aguirre will have equipment for gas detection and measurement,
for ventilation, etc.
The State of Queretaro offered to support the operation in any way
that is needed.
- Fofo
> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:09:44 -0800
> From: gonza...@msu.edu
> CC: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cave rescue in Mexico
>
> Hi, Bill.
>
> It's the Calabacillas mine, about 10 km of dirt roads from San
Joaquin,
> Queretaro. It's a mercury mine that has been abandoned for 40 years.
>
> Apparently four persons were checking it out looking for ore, and a
> collapse carried two of them. The passage is being described as a
> steeply descending with a pit at the end. As of this morning's report,
> the bodies had not been reached yet, there were preparations for
> dropping the pit or reaching from another passage the area where the
> bodies are presumed to be.
>
> There have been no further reports from the area. I would hate to have
> to work on a rescue in an old, abandoned mine. I hope that everything
> goes well and my thoughts are with the rescuers (Protecci�n Civil and
> Espeleo Rescate M�xico) and the families of the deceased.
>
> - Fofo
>
> speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote, on 20/1/10 17:04:
> > Has anyone heard anything about this?
> >
> > To: nssw...@yahoogroups.com
> > From: gonza...@msu.edu
> > Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:35:28 -0800
> > Subject: [NSSwest] Ongoing rescue in Mexico
> >
> > Good morning.
> >
> > This morning the Mexican Cave Rescue group received a call for
help in
> > Queretaro, in central Mexico. There is not much information, but 2
or 3
> > people could be trapped. Right now a small team is en route to get
more
> > information and evaluate the needs.
> >
> > - Fofo
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--- Begin Message ---
“Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to our
house,” said Sara Koenig, 23.
She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a local
hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to report
their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.
Near helotes.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
This is not a sinkhole but a classic hill slope failure. Quite impressive as
slips go.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: tbsam...@verizon.net [mailto:tbsam...@verizon.net]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:32 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: jrsam...@aol.com
Subject: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..
“Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to our
house,” said Sara Koenig, 23.
She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a local
hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to report
their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.
Near helotes.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jen. <bigredfo...@yahoo.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:41 PM
Subject: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving
To: we...@cunacueva.com, nssbo...@yahoogroups.com, nmca...@caver.net
It is my understanding that the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National
Forest in NM is no longer issuing recreational caving permits due to their
lack of funding for a cave specialist. I have heard rumors they might be
considering allowing commercial guides. In 1998 the NSS agreed to provide
volunteer services to Forest Service cave programs in lieu of Fee
Demonstration Projects being applied to caves. Over 1/2 million dollars of
Volunteer Value has been provided on this district of the forest by cavers
since then.
The Forest Service needs to provide funding for a cave specialist for this
district, continue to manage their caves, and issue recreational cave
permits to the public per their cave management plan.
Contact
Forest Supervisor:
Jacqueline (Jacque) A. Buchanan
jabucha...@fs.fed.us
_______________________________________________
NMCAVER mailing list
nmca...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I presume Jacqueline Buchanan is the District Ranger of the Guadalupe District.
I rather doubt that she has the financial authority to hire a cave specialist.
The decision to replace or create a position is almost certainly made at a
higher level, particularly in light of the current federal budget deficit. The
District Ranger likely submits requests for positions to be filled, but I'd be
astonished if the sole responsibility for hiring and release of federal funds,
discretionary or otherwise, were made at the local level.
Comments would be better delivered to the District 3 Forest Supervisor, 333
Broadway SE, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 842-3292 in Albuquerque, or the USFS
Chief Thomas Tidwell, 1400 Independence Ave., SW Washington, D.C. 20250-0003
(800) 832-1355, or ultimately the Dept. of Agriculture Secretary Thomas J.
Vilsack, U.S. Department of Agriculture, 1400 Independence Ave., S.W.,
Washington, DC 20250 Information Hotline: (202) 720-2791 . If anyone has the
missing name or email addresses of the above please post.
Right or wrong, cavers have been the true managers of Guad caves for over 50
years. The USFS needs to be made aware (again!) that they have an ethical and
moral responsibility (and I believe an M.O.U. with NSS) to provide management
of and permitted access to Guadalupe Caves. Failure to do so will lead to
clandestine trips, gate damage or removal, and cave vandalism, as the past has
repeatedly proven.
Jim Evatt
----- Original Message -----
From: Gill Edigar
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:18 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jen. <bigredfo...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:41 PM
Subject: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving
To: we...@cunacueva.com, nssbo...@yahoogroups.com, nmca...@caver.net
It is my understanding that the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National
Forest in NM is no longer issuing recreational caving permits due to their lack
of funding for a cave specialist. I have heard rumors they might be
considering allowing commercial guides. In 1998 the NSS agreed to provide
volunteer services to Forest Service cave programs in lieu of Fee Demonstration
Projects being applied to caves. Over 1/2 million dollars of Volunteer Value
has been provided on this district of the forest by cavers since then.
The Forest Service needs to provide funding for a cave specialist for this
district, continue to manage their caves, and issue recreational cave permits
to the public per their cave management plan.
Contact
Forest Supervisor:
Jacqueline (Jacque) A. Buchanan
jabucha...@fs.fed.us
_______________________________________________
NMCAVER mailing list
nmca...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Evatt wrote:
I presume Jacqueline Buchanan is the District Ranger of the Guadalupe
District. I rather doubt that she has the financial authority to hire
a cave specialist. The decision to replace or create a position is
almost certainly made at a higher level, particularly in light of the
current federal budget deficit. The District Ranger likely submits
requests for positions to be filled, but I'd be astonished if the sole
responsibility for hiring and release of federal funds, discretionary
or otherwise, were made at the local level.
She is the Lincoln Forest Supervisor (that's above the District Ranger)
and she has all the authority she needs to hire positions and spend
money. However, hiring is done based on need, funding, finding a
suitably qualified person and whether any particular position
(especially in a time of strained budgets) is more or less important
than another discipline. I guarantee you the FS does not think a
dedicated cave specialist is anywhere near as important as cavers think
it is. It is a moot point if the funds are not in the budget to do the
hiring. In the grand scheme of things, cave specialists are pretty far
down on the list of agency importance unless perhaps they fulfill a dual
function, and you already know how those kinds of positions work out.
Comments would be better delivered to the District 3 Forest
Supervisor, 333 Broadway SE, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 842-3292 in
Albuquerque, or the USFS Chief Thomas Tidwell, 1400 Independence Ave.,
SW Washington, D.C. 20250-0003 (800) 832-1355, or ultimately the Dept.
of Agriculture Secretary Thomas J. Vilsack, U.S. Department of
Agriculture, 1400 Independence Ave., S.W., Washington, DC
20250 Information Hotline: (202) 720-2791 . If anyone has the missing
name or email addresses of the above please post.
Won't hurt, but don't get your hopes up.
--
Stephen Fleming
______________
Poor New Mexico! So far from Heaven; so close to Texas.
Manuel Armijo
Governor of the Department of New Mexico
1827-29, 1837-44, 1845-46
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