texascavers Digest 31 Jan 2010 16:51:30 -0000 Issue 959

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 31 Jan 2010 16:51:30 -0000 Issue 959

Topics (messages 13471 through 13485):

Re: Sonora Butterfly
        13471 by: Brian Vauter

Cold weather tips of cave survival
        13472 by: Cristina Estrada
        13474 by: David
        13477 by: Rod Goke
        13479 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
        13480 by: Mary Thiesse
        13483 by: Cristina Estrada

Sonora Butterfly guide guide talk
        13473 by: William H. Russell

My New Hero
        13475 by: Josh Rubinstein

Re: Calling George Paul from Houston
        13476 by: George-Paul Richmann

underground texting
        13478 by: Mixon Bill

Re: Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
        13481 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
        13484 by: Linda Palit
        13485 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com

Epic Honey Creek Cave trips rescheduled
        13482 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

--- Begin Message ---

Going back to what the guide was "reported" to have said, the "quartz"
comment is something I have heard from many guides at
many caves. It's a prevalent guide "info-virus." I suspect it's a
mis-hearing of the word "coarse" in describing crystals. I heard this same
thing a number of years ago from a guide at Inner Space and was curious
where they got their info. The guide, when asked, said the formations were
made of quartz because the crystals were so big and they sparkled. I asked,
"you mean 'coarse,' like big or rough?" And she said, "yes. The crystals are
big or quartz." Our guides starting out will often make the same mistake.
And I've also heard it at Sonora.

How does this stuff get started? The best I can guess is that guides go and
visit other caves, hear what other guides say, and incorporate that into
their own tours. This is why I call such things info-viruses. And once a
guide gets "infected," they will often spread that mis-information to other
guides at their cave.

A good example of a prevalent info-virus was one that traveled around Texas
guides about 20 years ago. It went something like this:

"long ago" there was an electrical fire in [insert cave name here]. After
[X] number of [days/weeks/months], the smoke was smelled in this cave we're
in now [or insert another commercial cave name that's even further away].
This proves that all the caves in Texas are connected by tiny holes and
passages which allowed the smoke to travel that distance.

When I first started as a guide back in high school, I had heard this very
story from the guide who was training me at the time. He said that he had
heard it from a guide at Sonora. Not knowing any better, I used that same
story on my tours. It always got a good response. A couple of years later,
we did a trip to other commercial caves and we heard it at Wonder World and
also at Inner Space. The Inner Space guide said he had heard it from a tour
at NBC. The last time I heard this tale was around 1995, and it was at
Longhorn. But I never heard it after that. So I suppose somewhat similar to
an actual virus, it takes time to run through a population and eventually
dies out - or the population dies off (in this case quits) and the virus
dies out.

Please don't go and tell a guide this story ... like polio, it's a good
thing this one is gone!

The "going blind after [x] number of [days/weeks/months] of total darkness"
is another good example, and this is what I would consider as the longest
lasting guide mistakes. I heard it when I started at NBC, used it until I
found out otherwise, and I still hear it from time to time. It's a hard one
to kill.

Brian

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet
cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions
suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less
stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do
you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to
keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a
specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself
immediatly?

Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?

Thanks for your advice,
Cristina Estrada

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

I will try to answer part of Cristina's question.

I think different cavers are going to answer the question differently,
especially
ones that have done Honeycreek in the wintertime many times.

First,

I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the
best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek.

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$

2nd,

rubber boots that lace up also work well.   The laces allow you to
keep the boot tight
around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of
your boots.    Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but
occasionally you
will have to empty out the mud and grit.   You could wrap up your ankle with
sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace
up rubber boots.

The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe":

     http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots

I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek.

[ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ]

Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so
I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first.   They should last you
several years.


3rd,

As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for
going upstream
from the shaft.

What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ),

     http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm

and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers
the thighs, butt and chest.   That way you can easily move around and
not feel constricted in your suit.   This makes it easier to wear
knee-pads and elbow pads.

     http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif

Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls,
if you don't get cold easily.

On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming
section easier, but
I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms.

I think it important to have a front zipper.   Back zippers are not suitable for
caving.

[  Sidenote:  On the subject of wet-suits; you will tear up a wet-suit
pretty fast if you do a lot of caving in a crawling wet cave.   There
is no reason to purchase an expensive wet-suit.   If you are lucky,
you can find a used one that is perfect for caving for under $ 20.
Look at resale shops like Goodwill.   Scuba shops may have some, but
they may be a little more
expensive. ]


In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny
sterno can.   But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno

As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what
water-skiers use.   The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick
and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take
photos or survey.  [ However, the divers gloves work great for
"salamandering," if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you
can do that. ]

If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then
you could stash a sweater
and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag.

As for what to do as you exit the shaft in the winter-time,

it is best to have cavers top-side sitting around a large camp-fire.
Have a towel ready to dry off, especially your hair.   Immediately put
on a wool-knit ski hat.     Your wet-suit should keep you warm long
enough to find a sweater.   Have some warm dry boots in easy reach
at your car, so you can warm up your feet.   If it is in the 40's, you
will probably want to put
on a parka-type coat after getting on your sweater, if you are not
accustomed to cold weather.

A cup of hot cocoa or hot de-caf tea will feel refreshing.    You
could stash a thermos at
the bottom of the shaft if you were really worried about getting cold
in the cave.

Maybe decaf coffee might help.   Haven't tried that.

Shortly after getting dried off and warm, you might have some hot
tacos wrapped in foil
to put over the fire, but more than likely you are going to be too
exhausted and just want
to curl up in a warm sleeping bag and sleep.

Sounds like fun.   I wish I could have been there.

David Locklear

On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet
> cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions
> suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less
> stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do
> you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to
> keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a
> specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself
> immediatly?
>
> Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?
>
> Thanks for your advice,
> Cristina Estrada
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

I won't try to compete with all the detail that David wrote about what to wear, but here are a few comments that might help to answer some of your questions. Flooding hazard: The bad news is that Honey Creek Cave certainly can flood enough to be dangerous. In some sections, especially in certain parts of the through trip route, there is very little air space (as little as a few inches in some places) above the normal water level, so a small rise in water level can leave no breathing room at all in these critical locations. The good news, however, is that the water levels in Honey Creek usually do not rise very quickly. The cave has lots of natural dams in its stream passages, so in most areas, the normal water level is determined by the height of the next dam downstream. Whenever the water flow rate increases (because of rain upstream), more water flows over the dam such that a large increase in flow rate causes only a small increase in water depth behind the dam. Caution should be used in wet weather. The cavers who organize Honey Creek trips should be familiar enough with the conditions there to know when to postpone or cancel a trip due to hazardous weather. Keeping warm inside the cave: Temperature inside the cave should be practically the same any time of year, regardless of the outside temperature, except, of course, when you are very near an entrance. One advantage of cold weather, however, is that you are less likely to encounter "bad air" inside the cave in winter than you are in summer. The main disadvantage of cold weather is what it can do to you outside the cave, not inside, but I'll address that later. What you'll need to keep warm inside the cave will depend largely on where you go and what you do in the cave. If you do the through trip, you most likely will spend most of your time swimming or wading such that your entire body, except for your head, will be under water. For this, you will want a full wetsuit and fins, similar to those used by SCUBA divers. Since you will spend most of your time swimming with fins, you will want to wear wetsuit booties suitable for use with fins. These should have soles thick enough so that you can comfortably walk, climb, and/or crawl short distances over rocks and dry ground but, unlike caving boots, they should be thin enough to be worn with swim fins. The fins used for Honey Creek through trips are like those used for SCUBA, but it is preferable to use "floaters" instead of "sinkers" so that you are less likely to lose a fin if you accidently drop it in deep muddy water. Most SCUBA fins are designed to be almost neutrally buoyant, but some will slowly sink while others will slowly float to the surface when dropped in water. In my experience, white fins are more likely to float and black fins are more likely to sink, but it depends on the specific brand and model of fin, and the people who sell them usually don't know the sinkers from the floaters, because most SCUBA divers don't care. When I bought fins for use in Honey Creek a number of years ago, I went to a SCUBA shop with a pool in their back room, and the salesman tested various fins by placing them in the pool until we found some that didn't sink. For the through trip, you also will want some sort of floatation device to make prolonged swimming easier. One way to do this is to carry a cave pack large enough to contain a couple of large empty (air filled) soft drink bottles, which will cause your pack to float. You swim belly down with your arms over your floating pack and with your legs moving the fins behind you. During a through trip, you are not likely to sit still very long unless you stop to eat, so exercise will help to keep you warm most of the time. Other types of Honey Creek trips, however, can involve different conditions. For example, some of the upstream areas and side passages have mostly shallow water and mud where you will have little or no use for fins and will have to walk, wade, crawl, and/or salamander most of the time instead of swimming. In this case, you might not carry fins and might not care about adding floatation to your pack beyond whatever is needed to prevent the pack from sinking if accidentally dropped. For these conditions, you might want to wear boots like those David recommended, along with some socks that will keep your feet warm when wet. Neoprene socks (which differ from wetsuit booties in that they don't have thick soles) are best, but you'll need boots larger than what you normally wear to allow for the thickness of neoprene socks. Your upper body might be out of the water much of the time, so full wetsuit covering of the upper body is less essential. You might tend to get uncomfortably warm from exercise while actively moving through the passages but then get uncomfortably cold while surveying or otherwise do things that involve less exercise. You might prefer to wear a wetsuit bottom or farmer john style wetsuit, combined with upper body clothing you can adjust for different degrees of warmth. For example, you might use a thin wetsuit top or paddling jacket that can be zipped or unzipped in front to help control temperature. For extra warmth during periods of inactivity, you might want to put on a polypro balaclava and jacket, which you can remove and carry in a dry bag whenever you resume strenuous activity. A polypro balaclava takes very little room in a pack and, for its weight and bulk, is one of the most effective things you can carry to provide extra warmth when needed. Keeping warm onside the cave: If you're dressed adequately to stay comfortably warm inside the cave, then you probably will remain comfortable for a little while after emerging from the cave in cold weather, but before you have time to get chilled, its a good idea to dry off and change into something warm and dry. A campfire feels good if someone can get it going early enough to warm those emerging from the cave. One rather unusual thing I did sometimes after caving in Honey Creek was to take a warm outdoor shower before changing into dry clothes. Before driving out to Honey Creek, I'd fill a 10 gallon insulated water cooler with hot water. By the time I got out of the cave, the water had cooled down to a comfortable warm shower temperature, so I'd tie the water cooler to a tree limb and shower beneath it. This felt good in moderately cool weather, but I don't think I'd try it in really cold mid-winter weather. I haven't been in Honey Creek in a number of years, but back when I was caving regularly, Honey Creek was my favorite Texas cave. Hope you enjoy it. Rod -----Original Message-----  From: Cristina Estrada  Sent: Jan 30, 2010 10:34 PM  To: Cavers Texas  Subject: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival  Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Thanks for your advice, Cristina Estrada

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Hola Cristina,

The Honey Creek Cave tank haul was aborted yesterday. Twenty-five people went 
down the shaft entrance and started 
going upstream. The water was the highest I've ever seen it and the current was 
strong. An hour into the cave 
it was sumped, and besides, people were already feeling a little tired from 
fighting the strong current. We
aborted the trip then. Kurt Menking and I thought that the water was ever 
higher on the way out than on the way
in, so it might have been rising while we were in the cave, and of course 
that's dangerous.

You have been in the cave and to the HS Sump, so the answsers to your questions 
are simple. The cave is exactly 
the same whether it's hot or cold outside, with the one exception that when 
it's hot outside the air can be 
of a lesser quality in the cave.

Here's what you do when you come out of the cave and it's cold outside: You go 
straight you vehicle, you take off
your wetsuit, you dry yourself thorougly with a towel, and you get dressed in 
dry, warm clothes. And you do that 
as fast as you can.

What affects people more caving in the winter is that they don't have a warm 
enough sleeping bag. What works well
is to either have a fleece sleeping bag that you put inside of your regular one 
and get inside of the both (we got
our fleece sleeping bags at Walmart for $10 each about 5 years ago, and use 
them as our sleeping bags in the Texas
summer) or you have two sleeping bags and put one inside the other. You should 
also wear long underwear at night 
to help you stay warm.

I will address your gear issues when I comment on what Dave Locklear had to say 
about your questions.

NOTE: The three weekends in a row plan at Honey Creek Cave has been rescheduled 
to:

Weekend 1 - Feb. 13 - dive gear is taken into the cave and left

Weekend 2 - Feb. 20 - the dive is done and people can take tourists trips in 
the cave

Weekend 3 - Feb. 27 - dive is it brought out of the cave.

Regards,

Bill 


---- Cristina Estrada <ara...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet
> cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions
> suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less
> stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do
> you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to
> keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a
> specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself
> immediatly?
> 
> Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?
> 
> Thanks for your advice,
> Cristina Estrada

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

 >>>suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? 

Do you chill easily? 6 mm might be a little much for the whole body but if you 
chill easily you may want that much on your torso. If you are going on the tank 
hall then I don't think you will have to worry about getting cold while in the 
cave as you will be moving and that will keep you warm. When you stop to rest 
or for lunch make sure you are as far out of the water as you can be. If you 
start to chill then you need to start moving around best way to warm back up. I 
always used neoprene socks or booties for my feet (inside your boots) and I 
also had a variety of gloves that I tried. The best gloves were a neoprene 
diving glove but they were expensive and they didn't hold up well to the kind 
of caving you have to do in Honey Creek. Here again when you are on the move 
the hands and feet stay warm.

>>>Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you 
>>>wrapped yourself immediatly?

The first thing you do when you get out of the cave is to get out of the 
wetsuit and dry yourself off. Get into some warm dry clothes and then wrap 
yourself in a blanket if your still cold.

>>>Is it safe to cave when is raining?

Not if they are anticipating a lot of rain. Honey Creek can rise.

Have a good trip, I've spent many hours in Honey Creek, I hope you enjoy it.

Mary TZ






________________________________
From: Cristina Estrada <ara...@gmail.com>
To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 8:34:29 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival

Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave 
in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 
60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable 
during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do you have to 
keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, 
feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket 
outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly?

Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?

Thanks for your advice,
Cristina Estrada

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

 Thanks a lot to all of you for all your comments, they're very detailed and
they're greatly appreciated.

I've already been in honey creek cave in the grand finale and a tank haul,
but they were not during very cold weather (I'm from a hot weather place, so
40 F is very cold for me), that's why I wanted to konow what type of gear
should I get.

Because of all the good advice over here, now I have a very good idea and
I'll prepare accordingly. I'll go to the second and third trips. Now that
they're postponed, it gives me more time to prepare and the weather to get
warmer!!

Best regards,
Cristina Estrada

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Mary Thiesse <wpipistre...@yahoo.com>wrote:

>  >>>suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave?
>
> Do you chill easily? 6 mm might be a little much for the whole body but if
> you chill easily you may want that much on your torso. If you are going on
> the tank hall then I don't think you will have to worry about getting cold
> while in the cave as you will be moving and that will keep you warm. When
> you stop to rest or for lunch make sure you are as far out of the water as
> you can be. If you start to chill then you need to start moving around best
> way to warm back up. I always used neoprene socks or booties for my feet
> (inside your boots) and I also had a variety of gloves that I tried. The
> best gloves were a neoprene diving glove but they were expensive and they
> didn't hold up well to the kind of caving you have to do in Honey Creek.
> Here again when you are on the move the hands and feet stay warm.
>
> >>>Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out
> you wrapped yourself immediatly?
>
> The first thing you do when you get out of the cave is to get out of the
> wetsuit and dry yourself off. Get into some warm dry clothes and then wrap
> yourself in a blanket if your still cold.
>
> >>>Is it safe to cave when is raining?
>
> Not if they are anticipating a lot of rain. Honey Creek can rise.
>
> Have a good trip, I've spent many hours in Honey Creek, I hope you enjoy
> it.
>
> Mary TZ
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Cristina Estrada <ara...@gmail.com>
> *To:* Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> *Sent:* Sat, January 30, 2010 8:34:29 PM
>
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
>
> Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet
> cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions
> suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less
> stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do
> you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to
> keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a
> specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself
> immediatly?
>
> Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?
>
> Thanks for your advice,
> Cristina Estrada
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- My favorite guide story is scientifically accurate. I think it came from Sonora. The tour enters a small room and the guide stops the tour and announces "You are now in a very special place, this room is directly above the center of the earth." I have used this in trips with groups through Whirlpool Cave, and several appeared astonished. (Though I suppose I can't really say and be totally truthful that science supports that being directly above the center of the earth makes a cave room special, but the room IS directly above the center of the earth.)

Bill Russell
--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Texting Underground Can Save Lives and Caves
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123116417



Josh

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Yup, I have it.  I carpooling with Lyndon do I thought it was his and didn't
think twice.  Let me know if you want me to ship it to you.

Cheers,

GP

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 6:21 PM, jack witz <zachattackoo...@yahoo.com>wrote:

>   Hey GP,
>
> This is Zach and did you find a red and black backpack with a "wounded
> warriors" + eagle emblem on it and full of vertical gear in your jeep?  If
> any other Honeycreek tank haul attendees read this and you have it please
> let me know.
>
> I set it in your jeep before the trip b/c we organized our gear there.  My
> secondary interest was keeping your beers cool by blocking the sun while we
> did the tank haul.  After things were cut short I pulled it out and set it
> behind your jeep to get my leather gloves.  That's the last time I remember
> touching it.  You left while I was goofing off and I'm just guessing you
> tossed it into your jeep.  Please if you have it or even if you don't let me
> know.
>
> Contact me via email zachattackoo...@yahoo.com
>
> Thanks for breakfast and talk to you soon,
> Z
>
>


-- 
George-Paul Richmann
(513) 490-3100
gprichm...@gmail.com

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- That's a very clever idea. The range of the device is not so striking. It's been known for years that you can get a great range in those ultra-low-frequency magnetic-induction cave radios by using large antennas. Cave radios used for location purposes usually have more limited range because it is not easy to carry and accurately level a six-foot-diameter underground antenna. However, even back in the sixties the mine-rescue people had transmitters that could be picked up from a helicopter, using very large transmitting antennas made by trapped miners wrapping wire around a mine pillar.

What is really interesting is the text-messaging idea. Text messages require only a very low data rate, much lower than voice and comparable to Morse code, so they'll work fine with a very weak or noisy signal. Of course there's more electronics involved in sending and receiving text messages than sending and receiving code, but those familiar with the state of the art can probably figure out how to do it using text-capable phones for keyboard and display. And how many cavers know how to text compared to the number who know Morse code? Anyway, congratulations to Alex Kendrick. -- Mixon

----------------------------------------
A bore is a person who talks when you wish him to listen.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Dave said: 

> I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the
> best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek.
> 
> http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$

AGREED

Dave said:

> 2nd,
> 
> rubber boots that lace up also work well.   The laces allow you to
> keep the boot tight
> around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of
> your boots.    Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but
> occasionally you
> will have to empty out the mud and grit.   You could wrap up your ankle with
> sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing 
> non-lace
> up rubber boots.
> 
> The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe":
> 
>      http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots
> 
> I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek.
> 
> [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ]
> 
> Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so
> I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first.   They should last you
> several years.
> 
 
AGREED

Dave said:

> 3rd,
> 
> As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for
> going upstream
> from the shaft.
> 
> What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ),
> 
>      http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm
> 
> and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers
> the thighs, butt and chest.   That way you can easily move around and
> not feel constricted in your suit.   This makes it easier to wear
> knee-pads and elbow pads.
> 
>      http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif
> 
> Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving 
> overalls,
> if you don't get cold easily.
> 
> On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming
> section easier, but
> I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms.
> 
> I think it important to have a front zipper.   Back zippers are not suitable 
> for
> caving.

AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER 
GET
OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT 
ACADEMY
THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO 
THE
FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT 
WITH
THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT.

Dave said:

> In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny
> sterno can.   But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek.
> 
>      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno
> 

WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK,
A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL
NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD 
THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND 
PLACE
THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS.

Dave said:

> As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what
> water-skiers use.   The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick
> and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take
> photos or survey.  [ However, the divers gloves work great for
> "salamandering," if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you
> can do that. ]

NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR
HANDS RARELY GET COLD. 

Dave said:
 
> If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then
> you could stash a sweater
> and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag.

I DISAGREE ON THE SWEATER, AND INSTEAD RECOMMENT A POLYPRO, CAPILENE, 
OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC LONG UNDERWEAR TOP. YOU CAN EVEN HAVE THEM
LOOSE IN YOUR CAVE PACK AND SOAKING WET. WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU WRING IT
OUT, PUT IT ON WET, AND IN A MATTER OF LESS THAN A MINUTE YOU GET OVER THE
CHILL AND IT'S WARMING YOU UP.

Dave wrote:
> 
> Sounds like fun.   I wish I could have been there.
> 

WE'VE RESCHEDULED THE THREE WEEKENDS, DAVE, SO MAYBE YOU CAN. 

1) FEB. 13 - DIVE GEAR TAKEN TO THE HS SUMP
2) FEB. 20 - THE DIVE IS DONE AND THE CAVE IS AVAILABLE FOR TOURIST TRIPS
3) FEB. 27 - DIVE GEAR IS BROUGHT OUT OF THE CAVE.

LET ME KNOW WHICH TRIP(S) YOU CAN MAKE.

BILL 

> David Locklear
> 
> On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet
> > cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions
> > suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less
> > stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do
> > you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to
> > keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a
> > specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself
> > immediatly?
> >
> > Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?
> >
> > Thanks for your advice,
> > Cristina Estrada
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Great advice from all.

I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily.  
I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when 
I am eating, or if I get cold.  It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to 
put it on.  I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch.  
I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit.  If it is a swimming 
trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, but I 
happen to have one.  That is too restrictive for many trips.

I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to 
chill.  I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one.

Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel.

The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving.  
Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash 
bags or leaf bags.



For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that 
also makes a huge difference. 

Have fun, and stay warm.

-----Original Message-----
From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM
To: David; Cristina Estrada
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS 
ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS

Dave said: 

> I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the
> best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek.
> 
> http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$

AGREED

Dave said:

> 2nd,
> 
> rubber boots that lace up also work well.   The laces allow you to
> keep the boot tight
> around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of
> your boots.    Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but
> occasionally you
> will have to empty out the mud and grit.   You could wrap up your ankle with
> sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing 
> non-lace
> up rubber boots.
> 
> The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe":
> 
>      http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots
> 
> I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek.
> 
> [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ]
> 
> Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so
> I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first.   They should last you
> several years.
> 
 
AGREED

Dave said:

> 3rd,
> 
> As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for
> going upstream
> from the shaft.
> 
> What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ),
> 
>      http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm
> 
> and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers
> the thighs, butt and chest.   That way you can easily move around and
> not feel constricted in your suit.   This makes it easier to wear
> knee-pads and elbow pads.
> 
>      http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif
> 
> Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving 
> overalls,
> if you don't get cold easily.
> 
> On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming
> section easier, but
> I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms.
> 
> I think it important to have a front zipper.   Back zippers are not suitable 
> for
> caving.

AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER 
GET
OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT 
ACADEMY
THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO 
THE
FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT 
WITH
THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT.

Dave said:

> In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny
> sterno can.   But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek.
> 
>      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno
> 

WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK,
A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL
NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD 
THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND 
PLACE
THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS.

Dave said:

> As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what
> water-skiers use.   The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick
> and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take
> photos or survey.  [ However, the divers gloves work great for
> "salamandering," if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you
> can do that. ]

NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR
HANDS RARELY GET COLD. 

Dave said:
 
> If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then
> you could stash a sweater
> and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag.

I DISAGREE ON THE SWEATER, AND INSTEAD RECOMMENT A POLYPRO, CAPILENE, 
OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC LONG UNDERWEAR TOP. YOU CAN EVEN HAVE THEM
LOOSE IN YOUR CAVE PACK AND SOAKING WET. WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU WRING IT
OUT, PUT IT ON WET, AND IN A MATTER OF LESS THAN A MINUTE YOU GET OVER THE
CHILL AND IT'S WARMING YOU UP.

Dave wrote:
> 
> Sounds like fun.   I wish I could have been there.
> 

WE'VE RESCHEDULED THE THREE WEEKENDS, DAVE, SO MAYBE YOU CAN. 

1) FEB. 13 - DIVE GEAR TAKEN TO THE HS SUMP
2) FEB. 20 - THE DIVE IS DONE AND THE CAVE IS AVAILABLE FOR TOURIST TRIPS
3) FEB. 27 - DIVE GEAR IS BROUGHT OUT OF THE CAVE.

LET ME KNOW WHICH TRIP(S) YOU CAN MAKE.

BILL 

> David Locklear
> 
> On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet
> > cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions
> > suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less
> > stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do
> > you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to
> > keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a
> > specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself
> > immediatly?
> >
> > Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?
> >
> > Thanks for your advice,
> > Cristina Estrada
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

>>I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to 
chill. <<

Oh yeah, thanks, I also always carry a balaclava. And I have loaned it to other 
people too, 
when it really mattered for their well being.

Bill


---- Linda Palit <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: 
> Great advice from all.
> 
> I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily.  
> I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time 
> when I am eating, or if I get cold.  It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I 
> have to put it on.  I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for 
> lunch.  
> I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit.  If it is a 
> swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, 
> but I happen to have one.  That is too restrictive for many trips.
> 
> I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to 
> chill.  I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one.
> 
> Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel.
> 
> The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving.  
> Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash 
> bags or leaf bags.
> 
> 
> 
> For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that 
> also makes a huge difference. 
> 
> Have fun, and stay warm.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM
> To: David; Cristina Estrada
> Cc: Cavers Texas
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS 
> ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
> 
> Dave said: 
> 
> > I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the
> > best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek.
> > 
> > http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$
> 
> AGREED
> 
> Dave said:
> 
> > 2nd,
> > 
> > rubber boots that lace up also work well.   The laces allow you to
> > keep the boot tight
> > around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out 
> > of
> > your boots.    Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but
> > occasionally you
> > will have to empty out the mud and grit.   You could wrap up your ankle with
> > sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing 
> > non-lace
> > up rubber boots.
> > 
> > The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe":
> > 
> >      http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots
> > 
> > I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek.
> > 
> > [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ]
> > 
> > Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so
> > I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first.   They should last you
> > several years.
> > 
>  
> AGREED
> 
> Dave said:
> 
> > 3rd,
> > 
> > As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for
> > going upstream
> > from the shaft.
> > 
> > What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ),
> > 
> >      http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm
> > 
> > and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers
> > the thighs, butt and chest.   That way you can easily move around and
> > not feel constricted in your suit.   This makes it easier to wear
> > knee-pads and elbow pads.
> > 
> >      http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif
> > 
> > Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving 
> > overalls,
> > if you don't get cold easily.
> > 
> > On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming
> > section easier, but
> > I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms.
> > 
> > I think it important to have a front zipper.   Back zippers are not 
> > suitable for
> > caving.
> 
> AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND 
> NEVER GET
> OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT 
> ACADEMY
> THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT 
> TO THE
> FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT 
> WITH
> THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT.
> 
> Dave said:
> 
> > In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny
> > sterno can.   But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek.
> > 
> >      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno
> > 
> 
> WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH 
> SACK,
> A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A 
> SMALL
> NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR 
> HEAD 
> THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND 
> PLACE
> THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS.
> 
> Dave said:
> 
> > As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what
> > water-skiers use.   The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick
> > and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take
> > photos or survey.  [ However, the divers gloves work great for
> > "salamandering," if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you
> > can do that. ]
> 
> NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR
> HANDS RARELY GET COLD. 
> 
> Dave said:
>  
> > If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then
> > you could stash a sweater
> > and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag.
> 
> I DISAGREE ON THE SWEATER, AND INSTEAD RECOMMENT A POLYPRO, CAPILENE, 
> OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC LONG UNDERWEAR TOP. YOU CAN EVEN HAVE THEM
> LOOSE IN YOUR CAVE PACK AND SOAKING WET. WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU WRING IT
> OUT, PUT IT ON WET, AND IN A MATTER OF LESS THAN A MINUTE YOU GET OVER THE
> CHILL AND IT'S WARMING YOU UP.
> 
> Dave wrote:
> > 
> > Sounds like fun.   I wish I could have been there.
> > 
> 
> WE'VE RESCHEDULED THE THREE WEEKENDS, DAVE, SO MAYBE YOU CAN. 
> 
> 1) FEB. 13 - DIVE GEAR TAKEN TO THE HS SUMP
> 2) FEB. 20 - THE DIVE IS DONE AND THE CAVE IS AVAILABLE FOR TOURIST TRIPS
> 3) FEB. 27 - DIVE GEAR IS BROUGHT OUT OF THE CAVE.
> 
> LET ME KNOW WHICH TRIP(S) YOU CAN MAKE.
> 
> BILL 
> 
> > David Locklear
> > 
> > On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada <ara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi to all,  I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet
> > > cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions
> > > suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or 
> > > less
> > > stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold.  What suggestions do
> > > you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How 
> > > to
> > > keep hands, feet warm?  How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a
> > > specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself
> > > immediatly?
> > >
> > > Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your advice,
> > > Cristina Estrada
> > >
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> > 
> 
> 
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--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Yesterday 25 cavers went into Honey Creek Cave via the shaft entrance. The 
water in the cave
was higher than expected, and we encountered a strong current, which tired 
people out as we 
went upstream. Just beyond the Bifurcation the cave was sumped. We aborted the 
trip then. 

The rescheduled three weekends in a row are now:

1) Feb. 13 - dive gear goes into the cave to the HS Sump, six hours travel from 
the shaft entrance,
             and is left there.

2) Feb. 20 - the dive is done by Jean "Creature" Krecja and James Brown, and 
the cave is available 
             for tourist trips

3) Feb. 27 - dive gear comes out of the cave.

I have the following list of people for the Feb. 13 weekend already. Anyone 
interested in the being
part of the epic Feb. 27th trip, please send me an e-mail.

February 13, 2010

1.      Barry Adelman                       
2.      Sandi Calhoun                        
3.      Nathan Dennis                        
4.      Christina Estrada                   
5.      Will Harris                              
6.      Ben Hutchins 
7.      Ed Goff                                   
8.      Jay Jorden                              
9.      Edwin Lehr                           
10.     Kurt Menking                    
11.     Ryan Monjaras                    
12.     Dave Moore                      
13.     Michael Pugliese                   
14.     Bill Steele                           
15.     Ben Tobin    
16.     Diana Tomchick                   
17.     Heather Tucek                      
18.     Jesse Walker jwalker...@hotmail.com       
19.     Steve Webb                      
20 – 23. Drew Wendeborn and three other Aggies

Bill Steele
Irving, Texas

--- End Message ---