texascavers Digest 30 Nov 2009 06:33:48 -0000 Issue 897
Topics (messages 12726 through 12736):
Re: Utah cave to entomb spelunker :
12726 by: Don Cooper
12728 by: Charles Goldsmith
Linda Palit's Mail --Off Topic
12727 by: Linda Palit
cave rescue related
12729 by: David
12732 by: J. LaRue Thomas
12735 by: Gill Edigar
Re: Nutty Putty update on cave closure
12730 by: Mark Minton
12731 by: Matt Turner
12733 by: Chris Vreeland
Re: Pushing Tight Crawls
12734 by: Mark Minton
caver vehicle news
12736 by: David
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
If I ever need a cave rescue - get together a caver rescue team. PLEASE
don't call 911!
-WaV
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 9:38 PM, <jerryat...@aol.com> wrote:
> Utah cave to entomb spelunker
> Tragedy » Officials say it's too risky to retrieve John Jones, will seal
> cavern with his body inside.
>
> By Lindsay Whitehurst
>
> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
> <lwhitehu...@sltrib.com?subject=Salt+Lake+Tribune:+Utah+cave+to+entomb+spelunker>
> Updated: 11/28/2009 10:46:43 AM MST
>
> The cave that claimed the life of John Jones will also be his tomb.
>
> Nutty Putty Cave will be sealed permanently with the 26-year-old medical
> student's body inside, a decision supported by his family and rescue
> officials, who said retrieving him is too great a risk to rescuers. They
> also cited a desire to protect the safety of future cavers.
>
> "The cave will serve as the final resting place for John Edward Jones,"
> said Utah County sheriff's Sgt. Spencer Cannon. The Jones family will place
> a permanent memorial at the cave's entrance.
>
> "It will be, as they describe it, a sacred place for them and for a lot of
> other people," he said.
>
> Officials considered closing only the part of the cave where Jones rests,
>
> <http://www.sltrib.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2754117>
> John Edward Jones, 26, will have his final resting place in the Nutty Putty
> Cave, the Utah County Sherriff's Office announced Friday. There will be no
> more recovery efforts because of the dangers of the cave. (Rick Egan / The
> Salt Lake Tribune)
> but as Kim Christy, assistant director at the state School and
> Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA), said, "We decided it
> probably wasn't appropriate to have recreational activities going on in the
> same area that has a final resting place."
>
> Jones died late Wednesday after becoming stuck in an unmapped finger of the
> cave near the end of the main passageway, about 100 feet below the surface
> and 400 feet from the entrance, not near "Bob's Push" as previously
> reported.
>
> Rescuers briefly pulled him out of the crevice using a pulley system and
> ropes tied to his feet, but he slipped back in after an anchor broke free of
> the cave wall.
>
> The 137 people who tried to free Jones are physically and mentally
> exhausted after the 27-hour effort, and will be offered critical stress
> counseling, said Utah County sheriff's Sgt. Tom Hodgson.
>
> "It isn't in our makeup to leave anything undone," he said. "They still
> feel like there is work left to be done, that they didn't bring closure to
> the Jones family."
>
> He described the "Herculean effort" as the most difficult rescue he's
> worked on in 30 years.
>
> Jones' brother Josh said the family stands behind the crews, and are
> grateful for their efforts.
>
> "There are some who feel like they failed our family," he said. "We know
> they did their best. We want to thank them from the bottom of our hearts."
>
> John Valentine, a state senator and longtime search-and-rescue participant,
> said the crevice is simply too small, and the passage too winding, for
> anyone to crawl inside and pull him out without being at risk themselves.
>
> "He is in an area that is really beyond the scope of what anyone can get
> into," he said. It's "where the cave peters down to nothing."
>
> Jones entered the small passage as he and a group of family and friends
> fanned out to explore the cave. About 400 feet in, he found himself unable
> to move, stuck at a 70-degree angle with "a good portion of his waist and
> torso" pinched in an approximately 10-inch-wide space, Cannon said. His head
> was out and unsupported at one end, and his feet stuck out at the other end.
> After crews got him out of the crevice, they still would have had to pull
> him through the difficult stretch of cave behind him, which twisted and
> turned in 90-degree angles over uneven ground, Cannon said.
>
> But Jones fell again less than 30 minutes after he was unstuck. He wasn't
> injured in the fall, but started struggling to breathe about two hours
> later. He later fell silent after relaying messages to his family, Hodgson
> said. Rescuers, who also have medical training, threaded a stethoscope in
> the crevice but could not find a pulse. He was pronounced dead at 11:57 p.m.
> He is thought to have died of the effects of the constant pressure on his
> body.
>
> "I don't think we'll ever be certain, and I don't think that's important,"
> said Utah County Sheriff Jim Tracy.
>
> Jones was home for Thanksgiving in Stansbury Park from Charlottesville,
> Va., where he was a second-year medical student at the University of
> Virginia. He planned to become a pediatric cardiologist.
>
> He graduated from Dixie High School in St. George, where he played
> basketball and was senior class president, said friend Morgan Miles.
>
> He met his wife, Emily, at Brigham Young University. They married in 2006
> and had a 14-month-old daughter, Elizabeth, whom they called Lizzie. The
> couple recently found out Emily is pregnant and expecting a second child in
> June.
>
> Jones had explored many caves and loved the outdoors, so his family
> struggled with the decision to close Nutty Putty to future visitors, said
> 23-year-old Josh Jones.
>
> But "we feel it would be John's will to protect the safety of future
> cavers," he said.
>
> Officials have not decided how to close off the cave, which is now
> restricted by a metal grate and fencing under the ground, Cannon said. One
> option would be to fill in the entrance, which is a hole at the top of a
> hill west of Utah Lake. They expect to decide on what will be done within
> two to three weeks, and until then, a deputy will stand guard.
>
> The popular cave attracted about 5,000 to 10,000 people a year, despite its
> remote access point at the top of a hill west of State Road 68. On Friday, a
> draft of warm, moist air drifted out of the moss-lined entrance at the top
> of the cave as if the earth were exhaling.
>
> It was named for its soft brown "nutty putty" clay, which is found nowhere
> else in the country, said Mike Leavitt, the leader of the caving group
> Timpanogos Grotto. Because it is has no long rappels, it's a popular spot
> for beginner and intermediate cavers.
>
> "It is special in its own way," he said. "There are many safe parts of the
> cave, and there are extreme parts."
>
> There have been five high-profile rescues in the past 10 years, and it was
> closed temporarily in 2004 after two people became trapped in separate
> incidents within a week of each other, including a 16-year-old who got stuck
> in the same place Jones did.
>
> "There's no place else where we respond on five calls and have one death,"
> Hodgson said. "That is significant."
>
> In 2006, officials of SITLA, which owns the cave and surrounding land,
> turned over management to the Timpanogos Grotto, a local chapter of the
> National Speleological Society.
>
> The group spent years developing a permitting process, and, on May 18 of
> this year, groups were allowed back in the cave.
>
> Closing it again just six months later is difficult, Leavitt said, though
> he agreed it was "absolutely the right decision."
> *Cave experts weigh in on closing the cave*
>
> Climbing and cave expert Doug Hansen is disappointed with the decision to
> close Nutty Putty cave. The Orem man said the cave has provided youth with
> opportunities to explore and learn how to use maps and compasses.
>
> Dale Green, the man credited with discovering the cave in 1960, said
> completely closing off Nutty Putty Cave doesn't seem necessary.
>
> "I think they can do nearly the same thing by blocking off access to this
> one part of the cave," he said. "That's really the only problem there. ... I
> just think it's a big loss to the people if they do that."
>
> Green said he doesn't find the cave -- named after the soft clay found in
> parts of the tunnel -- too interesting personally, but it's an easily
> accessible cave that many people find entertaining to crawl through.
>
> Proper training and proper respect of the terrain is needed when exploring
> caves, said the 80-year-old, a member of the National Speleological Society
> Salt Lake Grotto chapter.
>
> "Caves, it's like mountain climbing, and in general it's as safe as you
> want to make it," Green said. "If you don't use common sense and don't take
> care and think ahead of what you're doing, things can get dangerous. ...
> There's danger everywhere, but you just have to use common sense."
>
> -- Tribune reporters Donald W. Meyers and Maria Villaseñor
>
> http://www.sltrib.com/contents/ci_13879115
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't you have to actually be in a cave before you can get rescued? :)
just joking wavy
Charles
On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Don Cooper <wavyca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I ever need a cave rescue - get together a caver rescue team. PLEASE
> don't call 911!
>
> -WaV
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 9:38 PM, <jerryat...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Utah cave to entomb spelunker
>> Tragedy » Officials say it's too risky to retrieve John Jones, will seal
>> cavern with his body inside.
>>
>> By Lindsay Whitehurst
>>
>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>> <lwhitehu...@sltrib.com?subject=Salt+Lake+Tribune:+Utah+cave+to+entomb+spelunker>
>> Updated: 11/28/2009 10:46:43 AM MST
>>
>> The cave that claimed the life of John Jones will also be his tomb.
>>
>> Nutty Putty Cave will be sealed permanently with the 26-year-old medical
>> student's body inside, a decision supported by his family and rescue
>> officials, who said retrieving him is too great a risk to rescuers. They
>> also cited a desire to protect the safety of future cavers.
>>
>> "The cave will serve as the final resting place for John Edward Jones,"
>> said Utah County sheriff's Sgt. Spencer Cannon. The Jones family will place
>> a permanent memorial at the cave's entrance.
>>
>> "It will be, as they describe it, a sacred place for them and for a lot of
>> other people," he said.
>>
>> Officials considered closing only the part of the cave where Jones rests,
>>
>> <http://www.sltrib.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2754117>
>> John Edward Jones, 26, will have his final resting place in the Nutty
>> Putty Cave, the Utah County Sherriff's Office announced Friday. There will
>> be no more recovery efforts because of the dangers of the cave. (Rick Egan /
>> The Salt Lake Tribune)
>> but as Kim Christy, assistant director at the state School and
>> Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA), said, "We decided it
>> probably wasn't appropriate to have recreational activities going on in the
>> same area that has a final resting place."
>>
>> Jones died late Wednesday after becoming stuck in an unmapped finger of
>> the cave near the end of the main passageway, about 100 feet below the
>> surface and 400 feet from the entrance, not near "Bob's Push" as previously
>> reported.
>>
>> Rescuers briefly pulled him out of the crevice using a pulley system and
>> ropes tied to his feet, but he slipped back in after an anchor broke free of
>> the cave wall.
>>
>> The 137 people who tried to free Jones are physically and mentally
>> exhausted after the 27-hour effort, and will be offered critical stress
>> counseling, said Utah County sheriff's Sgt. Tom Hodgson.
>>
>> "It isn't in our makeup to leave anything undone," he said. "They still
>> feel like there is work left to be done, that they didn't bring closure to
>> the Jones family."
>>
>> He described the "Herculean effort" as the most difficult rescue he's
>> worked on in 30 years.
>>
>> Jones' brother Josh said the family stands behind the crews, and are
>> grateful for their efforts.
>>
>> "There are some who feel like they failed our family," he said. "We know
>> they did their best. We want to thank them from the bottom of our hearts."
>>
>> John Valentine, a state senator and longtime search-and-rescue
>> participant, said the crevice is simply too small, and the passage too
>> winding, for anyone to crawl inside and pull him out without being at risk
>> themselves.
>>
>> "He is in an area that is really beyond the scope of what anyone can get
>> into," he said. It's "where the cave peters down to nothing."
>>
>> Jones entered the small passage as he and a group of family and friends
>> fanned out to explore the cave. About 400 feet in, he found himself unable
>> to move, stuck at a 70-degree angle with "a good portion of his waist and
>> torso" pinched in an approximately 10-inch-wide space, Cannon said. His head
>> was out and unsupported at one end, and his feet stuck out at the other end.
>> After crews got him out of the crevice, they still would have had to pull
>> him through the difficult stretch of cave behind him, which twisted and
>> turned in 90-degree angles over uneven ground, Cannon said.
>>
>> But Jones fell again less than 30 minutes after he was unstuck. He wasn't
>> injured in the fall, but started struggling to breathe about two hours
>> later. He later fell silent after relaying messages to his family, Hodgson
>> said. Rescuers, who also have medical training, threaded a stethoscope in
>> the crevice but could not find a pulse. He was pronounced dead at 11:57 p.m.
>> He is thought to have died of the effects of the constant pressure on his
>> body.
>>
>> "I don't think we'll ever be certain, and I don't think that's important,"
>> said Utah County Sheriff Jim Tracy.
>>
>> Jones was home for Thanksgiving in Stansbury Park from Charlottesville,
>> Va., where he was a second-year medical student at the University of
>> Virginia. He planned to become a pediatric cardiologist.
>>
>> He graduated from Dixie High School in St. George, where he played
>> basketball and was senior class president, said friend Morgan Miles.
>>
>> He met his wife, Emily, at Brigham Young University. They married in 2006
>> and had a 14-month-old daughter, Elizabeth, whom they called Lizzie. The
>> couple recently found out Emily is pregnant and expecting a second child in
>> June.
>>
>> Jones had explored many caves and loved the outdoors, so his family
>> struggled with the decision to close Nutty Putty to future visitors, said
>> 23-year-old Josh Jones.
>>
>> But "we feel it would be John's will to protect the safety of future
>> cavers," he said.
>>
>> Officials have not decided how to close off the cave, which is now
>> restricted by a metal grate and fencing under the ground, Cannon said. One
>> option would be to fill in the entrance, which is a hole at the top of a
>> hill west of Utah Lake. They expect to decide on what will be done within
>> two to three weeks, and until then, a deputy will stand guard.
>>
>> The popular cave attracted about 5,000 to 10,000 people a year, despite
>> its remote access point at the top of a hill west of State Road 68. On
>> Friday, a draft of warm, moist air drifted out of the moss-lined entrance at
>> the top of the cave as if the earth were exhaling.
>>
>> It was named for its soft brown "nutty putty" clay, which is found nowhere
>> else in the country, said Mike Leavitt, the leader of the caving group
>> Timpanogos Grotto. Because it is has no long rappels, it's a popular spot
>> for beginner and intermediate cavers.
>>
>> "It is special in its own way," he said. "There are many safe parts of the
>> cave, and there are extreme parts."
>>
>> There have been five high-profile rescues in the past 10 years, and it was
>> closed temporarily in 2004 after two people became trapped in separate
>> incidents within a week of each other, including a 16-year-old who got stuck
>> in the same place Jones did.
>>
>> "There's no place else where we respond on five calls and have one death,"
>> Hodgson said. "That is significant."
>>
>> In 2006, officials of SITLA, which owns the cave and surrounding land,
>> turned over management to the Timpanogos Grotto, a local chapter of the
>> National Speleological Society.
>>
>> The group spent years developing a permitting process, and, on May 18 of
>> this year, groups were allowed back in the cave.
>>
>> Closing it again just six months later is difficult, Leavitt said, though
>> he agreed it was "absolutely the right decision."
>> *Cave experts weigh in on closing the cave*
>>
>> Climbing and cave expert Doug Hansen is disappointed with the decision to
>> close Nutty Putty cave. The Orem man said the cave has provided youth with
>> opportunities to explore and learn how to use maps and compasses.
>>
>> Dale Green, the man credited with discovering the cave in 1960, said
>> completely closing off Nutty Putty Cave doesn't seem necessary.
>>
>> "I think they can do nearly the same thing by blocking off access to this
>> one part of the cave," he said. "That's really the only problem there. ... I
>> just think it's a big loss to the people if they do that."
>>
>> Green said he doesn't find the cave -- named after the soft clay found in
>> parts of the tunnel -- too interesting personally, but it's an easily
>> accessible cave that many people find entertaining to crawl through.
>>
>> Proper training and proper respect of the terrain is needed when exploring
>> caves, said the 80-year-old, a member of the National Speleological Society
>> Salt Lake Grotto chapter.
>>
>> "Caves, it's like mountain climbing, and in general it's as safe as you
>> want to make it," Green said. "If you don't use common sense and don't take
>> care and think ahead of what you're doing, things can get dangerous. ...
>> There's danger everywhere, but you just have to use common sense."
>>
>> -- Tribune reporters Donald W. Meyers and Maria Villaseñor
>>
>> http://www.sltrib.com/contents/ci_13879115
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to clutter Cavetex, but I have an issue.
Inconveniently, I have injured or killed another computer. If you have sent me
mail since Tuesday, November 17, I've lost it. Please resend.
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a response to Don's request to not call 911
if he needs a cave rescue.
I agree with him.
Caver's should inform other caver's prior to their trips
about their plans in the cave, especially if they plan to do
anything risky, like cave-dive a sump that is a mile
crawl into a cave, or bolt climb up a dome, or push
a tight crawl with bad-air, or do a mock rescue, or
dig, or do vertical work for the 1st time on their own,
or anything with the potential of an accident.
A "Plan B" should be in place in case there is a problem.
Caver's need to keep other caver's cell phones readily
available.
Caver's should avoid getting in situations that require
a rescue, but even with the best precautions, accidents can
happen.
Calling 911 should be a last resort ( my opinion only ).
Once a caver places this call, the cave rescuers that may
initially show up, may have only been trained in cave rescue,
and have not done much caving, especially any kind of
hard-core caving. Several hours could have passed or more
before they even reach the caver with the problem, and once there,
they may not be prepared to get the victim out of the cave.
In my opinion, an "experienced caver," is one who keeps up
with the updates in American Caving Accidents
http://www.caves.org/pub/aca/
I also think you need to have had a few accidents in order to
claim you are an "experienced caver." A twisted ankle or sprained
wrist that causes you to spend several additional hours exiting the cave,
qualifies. But a better example, my be falling on your bum, and knocking
the wind out of you. That will teach you to keep your chin-strap on.
Have you ever noticed on video's of cave rescues how all the people outside
are wearing hot fire-retardant coats and giant helmets? Or have
tons of boxes of gear, that
won't even fit in the entrance ? Or stringing phone line, when the caver is
just lost in a relatively small cave ? Or that the spokesperson for
the rescue
says something like the victim is trapped under a "stalagmite" hanging from the
ceiling that makes it impossible to reach him. Or that the victim is
"deep underground"
in a cave that is about 80 feet deep? Or the rescuers roll out
hundreds of feet of rope
and several stretchers, when there is only one victim who is just lost
in a small horizontal cave. Meanwhile the victim is shivering and
all he needs is a sweater, or a beach-towel to wrap around him, and a
swig of gatorade, and bite of a granola bar.
Then the other issue of calling 911 is the paparazzi's of the media.
Every rescue now,
makes bigger news than the Floyd Collins rescue did. The reporters
want fame, and a story, and will twist any fact to make it sound
shocking. "No caver has ever been left in a cave in the history of
mankind !!" "Military commandos could not even save the caver!!"
"Caver stuck in cave like a nail in a piece of wood !!" "Victim is
the great-grandnephew of
Floyd Collins !!"
If the caver is deceased, there are laws about moving a dead person.
But you can always claim you thought his brain was still alive, so
you were trying to quickly get him to the
emergency room.
Also, in my opinion, just because a person's pulse has just stopped is
no reason to give up.
Get a defilabrator on him. Or shoot him with a tazer. Or dunk him
in ice. Clamp some battery cables to him and start the car. But
don't give up.
Did I leave anything out ?
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the event of a cave accident, in the State of Texas you must call 911.
That said, make sure the sheriff's department in your area knows that cave
rescue is a special skill and make sure the sheriff has an easy way to
contact the people with those skills.
I'm betting just about any sheriff in any county with caves would be
delighted to let people who actually like to go into caves be part of the
response team. At least that's how it is in Sutton County. God willing we
will never have to test this. Jacqui
----- Original Message -----
From: "David" <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
To: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:58 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] cave rescue related
This is a response to Don's request to not call 911
if he needs a cave rescue.
I agree with him...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does that mean that we cannot start a self-rescue until the sheriff arrives
and approves it? Where is that line drawn? What if we preform a self-rescue
and never can or manage to get ahold of the sheriff or call 911? What kind
of trouble are we in then? Just want to be sure to comply with the law.
--Ediger
On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 6:56 PM, J. LaRue Thomas <jlrbi...@sonoratx.net>wrote:
> In the event of a cave accident, in the State of Texas you must call 911.
> That said, make sure the sheriff's department in your area knows that cave
> rescue is a special skill and make sure the sheriff has an easy way to
> contact the people with those skills.
>
> I'm betting just about any sheriff in any county with caves would be
> delighted to let people who actually like to go into caves be part of the
> response team. At least that's how it is in Sutton County. God willing we
> will never have to test this. Jacqui
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David" <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
> To: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:58 PM
> Subject: [Texascavers] cave rescue related
>
>
> This is a response to Don's request to not call 911
>> if he needs a cave rescue.
>>
>> I agree with him...
>>
>
>
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Locklear said:
>So what is the correct protocol for pushing a tight downward passage ?
A smart way to push tight passages is to go in feet
first. That usually keeps your head above your feet, and it makes it
much easier for people to help if you get stuck. And if it feels way
too small, don't force yourself in, although you might be amazed what
one can fit through with the right attitude and sufficient effort.
Mark Minton
You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly what Mark said. Feet first while abit clumsy has two main advantages A)
you're body is designed to climb up and B) the blood doesn't rush to your head
and cause problems. We teach this on all of our beginner trips here in Austin
for good reason "If you've never been down a passage before go feet first".
While I'll admit that I break this rule on occasion I never do it, without a
backup plan and thus far that back up plan never included Bolts and Rope.
I'm very sorry we lost one of our family, but I plan on using this as an
example for people on why you don't explore vertical passage head first. Which
then will nicely lead into one of my other rules of caving "Don't become and
example".
As for what you can fit into it's more about the right attitude than anything
else. People are always amazed at the things I get myself through and it's all
from believing i can and not panicking, the minute you do that you swell and
then you have a bigger issue.
sorry for typing what i'm sure most of you already know, but the question was
asked, so I figured I'd elaborate on it for those that didn't know.
Matt Turner
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without
accepting it." - Aristotle
"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do
that."- Norman Vincent Peale
________________________________
From: Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Sun, November 29, 2009 4:45:43 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Nutty Putty update on cave closure
David Locklear said:
>So what is the correct protocol for pushing a tight downward passage ?
A smart way to push tight passages is to go in feet first. That
usually keeps your head above your feet, and it makes it much easier for people
to help if you get stuck. And if it feels way too small, don't force yourself
in, although you might be amazed what one can fit through with the right
attitude and sufficient effort.
Mark Minton
You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
I've tried to keep this in mind, but I wish my feet had eyes. Often,
you can't tell if a crawlway's worth pushing unless you can cram your
head in it and look around a constriction or corner. I wish I had some
sort of stethoscopic viewer of some kind to shove through
constrictions instead of my head.
The other problem is groping around for footholds in a black void.
Sometimes you need to crawl in a bit head-first, see that there's foot
holds,then crawl back out to go on down foot first, knowing a bit more
about what's there.
That said, on the last Punkin trip, I got face-down into a more or
less 20-degree down-sloping crawlway, to find that it terminated, and
I had to push my self a body length back out of it -- that was the
roughest going of the whole trip, and winded me pretty good. (It
doesn't help at all when sharp rocks on the floor grab your shirt at
cram it up around your neck, either) It's hard on the shoulders, and I
wished I was in better shape. I don't think I could press 170 lbs.
over my head with a barbell, but that was what I was trying to do.
Tight caving takes more muscles than I knew I had sometimes.
CV
On Nov 29, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Matt Turner wrote:
Exactly what Mark said. Feet first while abit clumsy has two main
advantages A) you're body is designed to climb up and B) the blood
doesn't rush to your head and cause problems. We teach this on all
of our beginner trips here in Austin for good reason "If you've
never been down a passage before go feet first". While I'll admit
that I break this rule on occasion I never do it, without a backup
plan and thus far that back up plan never included Bolts and Rope.
[...]
A smart way to push tight passages is to go in feet first.
That usually keeps your head above your feet, and it makes it much
easier for people to help if you get stuck. And if it feels way too
small, don't force yourself in, although you might be amazed what
one can fit through with the right attitude and sufficient effort.
Mark Minton
You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Chris Vreeland said:
>I wish I had some sort of stethoscopic viewer of some kind to shove
through constrictions instead of my head.
I know a couple of people who have rigged up a small video
camera and light on a stick that they can probe a tight passage to
see what's on the other side. You can watch on the monitor as the
camera pans around. Sometimes you need something for scale, because
you can't tell how large the space ahead is without a reference
point. We have used this to decide whether digs are
worthwhile. It's good tool, but not one that you would take on a routine trip.
Mark Minton
You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is a new concept Jeep:
http://jeepin.net/images/news/2009ejs/JeepLower40images4.jpg
http://jeepin.net/images/news/2009ejs/JeepLower40images2.jpg
Here are some specs:
5.7-liter HEMI® V-8 engine
Getrag 238 six-speed manual transmission.
Dana 44 front axle
Dana 60 rear axle equipped with 5:38 gears
ARB air lockers
More pics:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/11/Jeep-Lower-Forty-Concept.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/chrysler/ns/chrysler_rear_ns_3_717.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/11/jeeplowerfortylive_01.jpg
More specs:
380 hp and 404 lb-ft of torque
carbon-fiber hood.
Custom Roll Cage
Custom paint job
20" diameter aluminum wheels with 40" off-road tires
The builders took a stock Rubicon and modified it, so all the other parts are
stock items, meaning just like the Rubicon at the Jeep dealer.
( which isn't cheap to begin with )
More pics:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/11/jeeplowerfortylive_06.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/11/jeeplowerfortylive_05.jpg
Discussion:
I would be guessing that you would need $ 60,000 plus tax to get your
hands on this.
Would you take it to the Sierra Madres, and scratch up that pretty red
expensive paint job, or
ding up those shiny aluminum rims ?
I don't think a caving vehicle needs 40" tires. However, that extra
ground clearance could
come in handy.
It would be risky to drive a vehicle this expensive in the
back-country. If you were to run across some bad people, they may
not think twice about shooting you to have
the Jeep. I would feel safer in an old rusty Jeep, Scout, or Bronco
with steel rims.
That way I could just smile and say "Amigo, es un gran placer venderse
este magnifca maquina por solamente cuatro mil pesos." And then
hopefully hand him the keys and use the money to buy a bus ticket
home.
Most of the caves that I would like to go to in the Sierra Madres (
someday ) can be reached with a reliable 4x4 Suburban or Excursion
with good off-road tires and a spare. For example, the road up the
mountain to the karst area above the town of Gomez Farias in the El
Cielo area with caves like Joya de Salas. But there are lots of old
forgotten logging roads up there, that a short-wheel based Jeep would
be able to explore that the SUV's could not. Lots of other caves I
want to see someday, do not even require 4WD.
It looked like the recent Thanksgiving trip to Laguna Sanchez needed a
reliable 4x4 SUV or
truck.
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs061.snc3/12867_1239362617427_1030131693_30661329_3731955_n.jpg
That sure looked like fun.
David Locklear
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