texascavers Digest 24 Jun 2009 22:32:33 -0000 Issue 784
Topics (messages 11071 through 11086):
Re: cave/cavern questions for book
11071 by: Fofo
11072 by: Charles Goldsmith
11076 by: Minton, Mark
15th ICS - Want to go caving at Kickapoo?
11073 by: germanyj.aol.com
Paging Joe Ranzau
11074 by: Tom Florer
11075 by: Tom Florer
[texascavers] Boot toe guard repair
11077 by: Simon Newton
11078 by: Keith Goggin
11079 by: Preston Forsythe
Kerrville tourist information
11080 by: David
OT - storing cave movies on DVD
11081 by: David
interesting link on Sinkholes along the Dead Sea
11082 by: Geary Schindel
11083 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
Re: Boot toe guard repair
11084 by: Minton, Mark
Dead Sea
11085 by: Mixon Bill
Re: Help for a friend of a friend?
11086 by: Katherine Arens
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi!
Hmm... Wow, I guess there could be a flood of answers. OK, here are my
comments:
> 1. In a long tunnel - c. 6’ wide x c. 8’ high; about a quarter of a
> mile in length - can a sensitive person detect changes in air pressure,
> humidity, and smells, the deeper in and down you travel in this tunnel?
The pressure gradient in the atmosphere is not big enough to feel it
when merely walking through a passage and getting deeper into a cave.
Changes in humidity and smell, yes, you can feel those (but they are not
necessarily related to changes in depth).
> 2. Can you feel air moving in such a long tunnel that leads to an air
> shaft?
Yes -- if there's air movement. That is, a tunnel leading to a pit open
to the surface doesn't necessarily have airflow through it.
> 3. If you hover over an air shaft on the surface, can you feel/detect
> air movement going in or out?
Yes (again, if there is air movement).
> 4. If you are in a cave, tunnel, or cavern for up to three days, do you
> lose track of time?
> Could a person go to sleep for several hours and wake up, thinking
> it must be morning?
Yes, because you lack any indication of whether or not it is day or
night. Without watches and in a cave, people tend to still adopt a
roughly 24-hr cycle, of about 12 hrs or activity/12 hrs of rest, but the
"day" _could_ start at, say, 3 am, and since you don't have anything to
tell you that, you go happily about your business.
> 5. What significant developments can a person experience in long term
> caving?
Hmm... Great friends and cool stories? :)
I'm not sure I understand the question. Is it like, what could be the
effects of extremely long stays in caves? Or more like what happens when
someone caves often and has been doing it for a long time?
Under the total darkness and (sometimes) silence of a cave, some
people's brain may start providing their own stimulus via visual or
auditory hallucinations, but I guess there is some adaptation to it,
because cavers routinely spend weeks underground while exploring hard
caves without any problems (but in those cases there are plenty of
stimuli around, like other cavers).
- Fofo
Mark Alman wrote, on 22/6/09 14:51:
Hey, Robert.
I'm no expert, but, I will post your message to CaveTex, where folks
much more intelligent, experienced, and educated than I can, hopefully,
help.
OK, y'all, time to dazzle Robert with your collective brilliance!
Thanks and good luck on your story!
Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Robert Graham <r...@localaccess.com>
*To:* chair...@cavetexas.org
*Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2009 1:39:32 PM
*Subject:* cave/cavern questions
Hello.
I'm co-writing a sci-fi adventure story, and would like to ask for help
on several questions (that I can think of now, anyway) concerning
tunnels and caverns.
My characters are now in one of a series of caverns and will be
traveling through them for up to 25 miles. The caverns are both natural
and man-made, deliberately designed and connected for underground
transportation. Two of the group of four have calcium carbide lamps
fixed to their helmets.
1. In a long tunnel - c. 6’ wide x c. 8’ high; about a quarter of a
mile in length - can a sensitive person detect changes in air pressure,
humidity, and smells, the deeper in and down you travel in this tunnel?
2. Can you feel air moving in such a long tunnel that leads to an air
shaft?
3. If you hover over an air shaft on the surface, can you feel/detect
air movement going in or out?
4. If you are in a cave, tunnel, or cavern for up to three days, do you
lose track of time?
Could a person go to sleep for several hours and wake up, thinking
it must be morning?
5. What significant developments can a person experience in long term
caving?
If you are not in a position to respond, can you direct me to someone
who can?
Thanks for any help.
Robert Graham
Warshington state, USA
or
46º 28' 28" North
122º 56' 44" West
http://seventhorder.c-corp.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are a lot of qualified people that could answer these questions,
feel free to subscribe to our mailing list Robert and post your
questions and you'll get a lot of comments. Best technical
consultants you'll find :)
Charles
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Fofo<gonza...@msu.edu> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Hmm... Wow, I guess there could be a flood of answers. OK, here are my
> comments:
>
>
>> 1. In a long tunnel - c. 6’ wide x c. 8’ high; about a quarter of a
>> mile in length - can a sensitive person detect changes in air pressure,
>> humidity, and smells, the deeper in and down you travel in this tunnel?
>
> The pressure gradient in the atmosphere is not big enough to feel it when
> merely walking through a passage and getting deeper into a cave. Changes in
> humidity and smell, yes, you can feel those (but they are not necessarily
> related to changes in depth).
>
>
>
>> 2. Can you feel air moving in such a long tunnel that leads to an air
>> shaft?
>
> Yes -- if there's air movement. That is, a tunnel leading to a pit open to
> the surface doesn't necessarily have airflow through it.
>
>
>> 3. If you hover over an air shaft on the surface, can you feel/detect
>> air movement going in or out?
>
> Yes (again, if there is air movement).
>
>
>> 4. If you are in a cave, tunnel, or cavern for up to three days, do you
>> lose track of time?
>> Could a person go to sleep for several hours and wake up, thinking
>> it must be morning?
>
> Yes, because you lack any indication of whether or not it is day or night.
> Without watches and in a cave, people tend to still adopt a roughly 24-hr
> cycle, of about 12 hrs or activity/12 hrs of rest, but the "day" _could_
> start at, say, 3 am, and since you don't have anything to tell you that, you
> go happily about your business.
>
>
>
>> 5. What significant developments can a person experience in long term
>> caving?
>
> Hmm... Great friends and cool stories? :)
> I'm not sure I understand the question. Is it like, what could be the
> effects of extremely long stays in caves? Or more like what happens when
> someone caves often and has been doing it for a long time?
> Under the total darkness and (sometimes) silence of a cave, some people's
> brain may start providing their own stimulus via visual or auditory
> hallucinations, but I guess there is some adaptation to it, because cavers
> routinely spend weeks underground while exploring hard caves without any
> problems (but in those cases there are plenty of stimuli around, like other
> cavers).
>
> - Fofo
>
>
> Mark Alman wrote, on 22/6/09 14:51:
>>
>> Hey, Robert.
>> I'm no expert, but, I will post your message to CaveTex, where folks
>> much more intelligent, experienced, and educated than I can, hopefully,
>> help.
>> OK, y'all, time to dazzle Robert with your collective brilliance!
>> Thanks and good luck on your story!
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Robert Graham <r...@localaccess.com>
>> *To:* chair...@cavetexas.org
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2009 1:39:32 PM
>> *Subject:* cave/cavern questions
>>
>> Hello.
>> I'm co-writing a sci-fi adventure story, and would like to ask for help
>> on several questions (that I can think of now, anyway) concerning tunnels
>> and caverns.
>> My characters are now in one of a series of caverns and will be traveling
>> through them for up to 25 miles. The caverns are both natural and man-made,
>> deliberately designed and connected for underground transportation. Two of
>> the group of four have calcium carbide lamps fixed to their helmets.
>> 1. In a long tunnel - c. 6’ wide x c. 8’ high; about a quarter of a mile
>> in length - can a sensitive person detect changes in air pressure, humidity,
>> and smells, the deeper in and down you travel in this tunnel?
>> 2. Can you feel air moving in such a long tunnel that leads to an air
>> shaft?
>> 3. If you hover over an air shaft on the surface, can you feel/detect
>> air movement going in or out?
>> 4. If you are in a cave, tunnel, or cavern for up to three days, do you
>> lose track of time?
>> Could a person go to sleep for several hours and wake up, thinking it
>> must be morning?
>> 5. What significant developments can a person experience in long term
>> caving?
>> If you are not in a position to respond, can you direct me to someone who
>> can?
>> Thanks for any help.
>> Robert Graham
>> Warshington state, USA
>> or
>> 46º 28' 28" North
>> 122º 56' 44" West
>> http://seventhorder.c-corp.net/
>>
>
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fofo said:
1. In a long tunnel - c. 6' wide x c. 8' high; about a quarter of a mile in
length - can a sensitive person detect changes in air pressure, humidity, and
smells, the deeper in and down you travel in this tunnel?
The pressure gradient in the atmosphere is not big enough to feel it when
merely walking through a passage and getting deeper into a cave. Changes in
humidity and smell, yes, you can feel those (but they are not necessarily
related to changes in depth).
Actually one can detect changes in air pressure in a cave if one descends
rapidly enough. I have had my ears pop when rappelling down one drop after
another in a deep cave where the drops are close together and already rigged.
It is rare, though, and the cave has to be quite deep (hundreds of meters) and
the person moving rapidly. Merely walking would not get one deep fast enough
to feel the effects of pressure, as Fofo said. Also as Fofo said, humidity and
odors definitely change, most often as one approaches an entrance from inside
when the air flow is moving into the cave. We call it 'smelling outside' and
it is most noticeable after a long trip.
2. Can you feel air moving in such a long tunnel that leads to an air shaft?
Yes -- if there's air movement. That is, a tunnel leading to a pit open to the
surface doesn't necessarily have airflow through it.
In order to have good air flow through a tunnel, it generally has to have
two openings to the outside at different elevations. These openings can be
either vertical or horizontal. The greater the difference in elevation, the
larger the air flow. In favorable cases it is possible to feel a breeze on
one's face. And if such a passage comes to a constriction, the air movement
can be dramatic. It can blow strongly enough to blow out a carbide lamp flame,
for example.
3. If you hover over an air shaft on the surface, can you feel/detect air
movement going in or out?
Yes (again, if there is air movement).
In favorable cases the air movement at an entrance can be quite dramatic.
Not only can one feel the breeze, but it can cause plants to move in the wind,
and small bits of debris can be blown out when tossed in. This is by far more
noticeable when the air is blowing out rather than in.
4. If you are in a cave, tunnel, or cavern for up to three days, do you lose
track of time? Could a person go to sleep for several hours and wake up,
thinking it must be morning?
Yes, because you lack any indication of whether or not it is day or night. Without
watches and in a cave, people tend to still adopt a roughly 24-hr cycle, of about 12 hrs
or activity/12 hrs of rest, but the "day" _could_ start at, say, 3 am, and
since you don't have anything to tell you that, you go happily about your business.
Actually, during extended stays underground we have found that one's days
tend to become quite extended. It is not uncommon for one to be active for 18
to 24 hours and then to sleep for 12 to 20 hours. As Fofo said, there are no
external cues, so the body adopts its own schedule. This is particularly
noticeable on longer cave camps, where 5 days worth of food may last for 7 or 8
surface days, because the in-cave days have been extended.
5. What significant developments can a person experience in long term caving?
I'm not sure I understand the question.
I agree. We need more details about what you're after. There have been
psychological studies of people who spent months at a time in a cave.
Frenchman Michel Siffre is probably the most well known and studied. You'll
get lots of hits if you Google his name. And of course the experiences of
long-term cavers are hugely varied, but most center on the community and the
experiences of exploring in an unusual and little-known environment.
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fellow Cavers:
Due to recent changes in transportation methods for the 15th ICS trips to
Kickapoo Cavern, we have a shortage of drivers for vans.
If you are 25 years or older, interested in going to Kickapoo Cavern for free!
and available at least one of the following days, we need YOU!
You don't have to be registered for the ICS, and if you are, you don't have to
pay to go on any trip for which you are a volunteer.? So, now that the final
schedule has been posted on the 15th ICS Web site (www.ics2009.us), please see
when you might have some free time and consider spending one day at one of the
best caves in the state.
Here are the volunteer needs for Kickapoo Cavern during the ICS:
Sunday, 19 July
1 van driver
Monday, 20 July
1 van driver
Tuesday, 21 July
2 van drivers
Wednesday, 22 July (This trip includes Kickapoo Cavern and the bat flight at
Devil's Sinkhole.)
3 NON-drivers to be on Bus 2? (You can be under the age of 25 for this trip; no
driving required.)
Sunday, 26 July
3 van drivers
All days, except Wednesday, the vans will depart Kerrville at 8:00 a.m. and
return in the afternoon.
On Wednesday, the bus will depart at 7:00 a.m. and get back by 11 pm.
If you're interested, please contact me off list.
Also, please forward this message to anyone who you think might be interested.
Thanks!
julia germany
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's try this again...
Joe, call me as soon as you get a chance...(512)560-6037. Thanks!
-Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems like I go through the toes of my caving shoes/boots faster
than any other part. Does anyone have good solutions for repairing or
making good toe guards for caving?
I have used Sof Sole Shoe Goo to repair hiking boots before and was
thinking I could just use that to affix some new rubber.
http://www.rei.com/product/679240
I also ran across Tuff Toe (basically polyurethane)
http://www.tufftoeworkboots.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=9
Anyone have some ideas or recommendations?
Thanks,
Simon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First, either start with a *good* cleaning of your boots (or better yet, start
with a new pair), then coat with a few layers of Aquaseal - all over the toes
and back to around the heel. It's quite likely the Aquaseal will outlast the
rest of your caving boots.
Good luck!
________________________________
From: Simon Newton <csnew...@gmail.com>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 2:32:13 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] [texascavers] Boot toe guard repair
It seems like I go through the toes of my caving shoes/boots faster
than any other part. Does anyone have good solutions for repairing or
making good toe guards for caving?
I have used Sof Sole Shoe Goo to repair hiking boots before and was
thinking I could just use that to affix some new rubber.
http://www.rei.com/product/679240
I also ran across Tuff Toe (basically polyurethane)
http://www.tufftoeworkboots.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=9
Anyone have some ideas or recommendations?
Thanks,
Simon
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--- Begin Message ---
Buy a pair of Bata Boots. Indestructible toes.
Perhaps, not the grippest soles but ok.
The French boots have a much better sole but overall not as tough. Could be
wrong on that. Frenchies also cost $75 + rather than $25 including postage.
Preston
----------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Newton" <csnew...@gmail.com>
To: <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 2:32 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] [texascavers] Boot toe guard repair
It seems like I go through the toes of my caving shoes/boots faster
than any other part. Does anyone have good solutions for repairing or
making good toe guards for caving?
I have used Sof Sole Shoe Goo to repair hiking boots before and was
thinking I could just use that to affix some new rubber.
http://www.rei.com/product/679240
I also ran across Tuff Toe (basically polyurethane)
http://www.tufftoeworkboots.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=9
Anyone have some ideas or recommendations?
Thanks,
Simon
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is something in Kerrville that you don't see everyday:
http://www.flyvertical.net/images/tunnel_1_.JPG
http://www.flyvertical.net/index.html
That would be a fun thing to have at a caving convention.
Here is some basic tourist info
http://wikitravel.org/en/Kerrville
At the bottom is a detailed list of some of the
restaurants and hotels
Below is one of the sites that reviews
restaurants.
http://www.urbanspoon.com/n/301/35721/Texas/Kerrville-restaurants
( I don't like to eat at common franchise places when I travel, especially
fast food )
Just 24 days till time to pitch your tent. ( 22 for the camp volunteers ? )
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Imagine being able to put all your favorite caving documentaries and films on
just one DVD.
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/
The potential of cavers with hi-def camcorders making more and more films will
eventually require such a disc ( if you wished to store them all in an easily
portable format ).
Imagine if your favorite caving vendor had such a disc for sale with, every
caving video ever entered in the video salon ?
For the average consumer,
it might be interesting to purchase a TV and have the movies already
integrated into it. For example, a kids TV, might have every single
Disney movie built-in on a non-removable disc like the one above.
David Locklear
P.S. If that link above doesn't work, it was about a DVD that holds
2,000 movies.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting link on sinkholes that are forming around the dead sea as a result
of groundwater extraction.
Geary
Dead Sea peril: sinkholes swallow up the unwary
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20090623/ap_tr_ge/ml_travel_brief_israel_dead_sea_sinkholes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI:
In Israel, hydrologic data is classified top secret. When I worked at BEG when there were a couple of Israeli hydrologists all of whom held bird colonel rank in the IDF.
T
Jun 24, 2009 08:03:11 AM, gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org wrote:
Interesting link on sinkholes that are forming around the dead sea as a result of groundwater extraction.
Geary
Dead Sea peril: sinkholes swallow up the unwary
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20090623/ap_tr_ge/ml_travel_brief_israel_dead_sea_sinkholes
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--- Begin Message ---
Preston Forsythe said:
Buy a pair of Bata Boots. Indestructible toes.
Regular Bata boots without the steel toe do have very good toes and indeed
last a long time, especially in water where other types of boots tend to fall
apart quickly (think Honey Creek). However I would not get Bata boots, or any
others for that matter, with steel toes. You do not need a steel toe for
caving, it makes the boots heavier, and most importantly, the hard steel toe
causes the outside toe material of the boot to wear much more quickly. I think
this is because the steel toe cap prevents the toe of the boot from flexing the
way it otherwise would, so the toe gets abraded much more rapidly when dragged
over rock surfaces. If a hole develops in the outer shoe material above a
steel toe you can try to fill it with Shoe Goo or the like, but in my
experience this never works for long. Eventually the toe hole will grow so big
that the steel cap falls out, and then the boots are shot.
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As the article states, the reason the level of the Dead Sea is sinking
is because the flow of the Jordan River into it has decreased greatly
due to use of its water adjacent countries. The fact that countries
bordering the sea "mine" salts by evaporating the water is
unimportant, because the evaporation ponds are in the sea, and there's
no more evaporation there than there would otherwise be. The lowering
of the sea level of course results in the lowering of the groundwater
level around the sea, resulting in the collapses. Groundwater
extraction has little to do with it.--Mixon
---------------------------------------------
He who renders warfare fatal to all engaged in it will be the greatest
benefactor the world has yet known. - Sir Richard Burton
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi, all -- I don't want to abuse your patience, but if you have some
work and/or an idea, this is a friend of a friend. Thanks for
reading and not flaming.
-katie arens
Hi all, My name is Steve Arcieri. I'm a good, sober guy, down on his
luck looking for a place to stay and maybe some opportunity to
exchange work for room and board. I'm a sober musician with
impeccable references who has had a real run of bad luck
economically. Part of the deal is that I would eventually like to
find a decent job here in Austin, but I've been applying all around
town and it's been really bad lately. A friend of mine offered to
put this on this list thinking maybe somebody might have something.
It can't hurt, right?
So, if you don't mind me helping out in whatever capacity, but
understand that I will be looking for work and willing to pay once I
am able, then I'd love to talk to you. Please call 512-906-0238 and
leave a message for me with my friend Carlos. Thanks so much, Steve.
--
************************
Katherine Arens Office Phones: (512) 232-6363
k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu Dept. Phone: (512) 471-4123
Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
1 University Station C3300 Bldg.Location: Burdine 336
University of Texas at Austin Office: Burdine 320
Austin, TX 78712-0304
-. .-
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