texascavers Digest 30 Oct 2008 16:49:56 -0000 Issue 635
Topics (messages 9276 through 9287):
UT Grotto meeting â October 29, 2008
9276 by: Gary Franklin
TSA Officers
9277 by: Linda Palit
9279 by: Linda Palit
9284 by: Denise P
9287 by: Linda Palit
Robber Baron Celebration November 8 & 9
9278 by: Linda Palit
9280 by: Minton, Mark
Cave Species
9281 by: Linda Palit
World's deepest shaft ?
9282 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
9285 by: Minton, Mark
Calling Lee Jay Graves :
9283 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
Re: ... and Longhorn Caverns Dig, Saturday, Nov. 1st
9286 by: mark.alman.l-3com.com
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UT Grotto meeting – October 29, 2008
www.utgrotto.org
The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M.
on the University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall
http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html
David Ochel will be sharing spectacular photos from his many recent caving
trips including a visit to Arizona, O-9, and others. Please join us for
"Caving in no caves to speak of, and other recent caving trips"
After the meeting, we will adjourn to Liza & Corinne's Pumpkin Carving party
that will end about 10:30. Go by the HEB for a Pumpkin, then bring it to the
party with a knife and make a Jack-O-Lantern!!!!!!!!
Contact Gary v...@utgrotto.org if you are interested in sharing 10 - 30
minutes of adventures from your cave related event.
http://www.utgrotto.org/contacts.asp
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BOOOO!
You should be receiving your TSA ballot for 2009 officers if you did not
vote at TCR. We tried to have some people vote at TCR, and to keep the
records so that we would not have to be spending on so much money on
mailings. If you do not receive a ballot in the next couple of days, and
you feel you need one, please email me with all of your mailing information.
Other complaints or comments may be sent this way also, but I may or may not
be the one who can help.
Please drop you cards in the mail as soon as possible, but they must be
postmarked by November 10th to count.
Thanks and Happy Halloween. Haunt Underground!
Linda
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Lyndon,
I attempted to not send ballots to anyone who voted at TCR, and hopefully my
records are accurate. We tried. But this was the first time we did it this
way, so let me know if you see errors.
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:18 AM
To: lkpa...@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA Officers
I voted already, so don't send me one.
Thanks.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
We got our ballot yesterday and it said it must be postmarked by the previous
Monday to be valid. I assume that's not true?
-Denise> From: lkpa...@sbcglobal.net> To: l...@alumni.sfu.ca;
texascavers@texascavers.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:24:09 -0500> Subject:
RE: [Texascavers] TSA Officers> > Thanks, Lyndon, > I attempted to not send
ballots to anyone who voted at TCR, and hopefully my> records are accurate. We
tried. But this was the first time we did it this> way, so let me know if you
see errors.> > Linda> > > -----Original Message-----> From: Lyndon Tiu
[mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:18 AM> To:
lkpa...@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA Officers> > > I voted
already, so don't send me one.> > Thanks.> > > --> Lyndon Tiu> > >
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--- Begin Message ---
It must be postmarked by November 10th.
I have a few blank copies and that is what they say, so hopefully everybody
else's have the correct date.
Sorry, Denise.
Linda
_____
From: Denise P [mailto:pepabe...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:57 AM
To: 'TexasCavers'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA Officers
We got our ballot yesterday and it said it must be postmarked by the
previous Monday to be valid. I assume that's not true?
-Denise
> From: lkpa...@sbcglobal.net
> To: l...@alumni.sfu.ca; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:24:09 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA Officers
>
> Thanks, Lyndon,
> I attempted to not send ballots to anyone who voted at TCR, and hopefully
my
> records are accurate. We tried. But this was the first time we did it this
> way, so let me know if you see errors.
>
> Linda
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:18 AM
> To: lkpa...@sbcglobal.net
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA Officers
>
>
> I voted already, so don't send me one.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Lyndon Tiu
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
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Have you been to Robber Baron Cave lately? Ever? Check out information on
the cave at http://www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron/rb_schedule.htm (note the
links at the top for map and more information on the cave. It's in San
Antonio, and we are celebrating a new gate and renovations on November 8th
and 9th.
All Texas Cavers are invited.
On Saturday -
* 9am to 3pm we will host the neighborhood and need assistance herding
people inside the cave - you do not have to know the cave to help. We need
some people stationed in specific locations.
* 3pm to 6pm - Teach any cave who wants the basic lay out of the cave
so you can lead your own trips in the future
* 6pm - BBQ and caver style evening
On Sunday - We have set up a trip to Spring Creek Cave - a beautiful but
easy water cave which you can visit for a short distance in caving clothes
or see the entire cave if you bring a wet suit.
More details will follow if you decide to come.
http://www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron/rb_schedule.html
Please RSVP to me, with information as to when you will arrive, do you want
housing or camping, and which events will you be participating in. We really
need accurate counts for food, camping, and housing.
It's going to be a great weekend, and we hope to see lots of Texas Cavers.
Thanks!
Linda
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Linda Palit said:
>Have you been to Robber Baron Cave lately? Ever? Check out information on
>the cave at http://www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron/rb_schedule.htm
That link doesn't work because it is missing the final l. The link
further down in her message does work properly, however:
>More details will follow if you decide to come.
>http://www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron/rb_schedule.html
Mark Minton
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Greetings, Guys,
Interesting article below. I have also heard rumors of midnight regulation
to lessen the protection of cave species - therefore the protection of
caves. Does anybody have any information on that?
Threats To Cave Species Spark Litigation Nationwide
By Jesse Greenspan
Law360, New York (October 28, 2008) -- Caves are currently one of the most
imperiled habitats in the United States due to such things as groundwater
pollution and urban development. But although caves don't contain large,
iconic species like the gray wolf or grizzly bear, numerous lawsuits have
been filed in an attempt to protect their wildlife, artifacts and mineral
formations.
This February, for example, two citizens' groups sued the U.S. Federal
Highway Administration for proposing to expand U.S. Highway 281 and Loop
1604 over an aquifer recharge zone in central Texas that contains many
caves.
The suit, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of
Texas, alleges among other things that the highway expansions would destroy
feeding, breeding and sheltering habitat for federally listed cave
invertebrates, including pseudoscorpions and beetles. The highway expansions
would also alter runoff patterns, disturb the flow of nutrients into the
water and facilitate the introduction of fire ants and other invasive
species, according to the complaint.
Bill Bunch, an attorney and executive director with Save Our Springs
Alliance in Austin, Texas, who is representing the plaintiffs in the case,
said he is also considering challenging the critical habitat designations
for some of those cave species.
"Most of these caves are pretty small, but they might have three or four
unique species in them," Bunch said. "It's pretty fascinating. It's these
little isolated, island habitats."
He said that because Texas has almost no land-use control laws, his
organization often has to turn to federal laws like the Endangered Species
Act when filing a lawsuit.
In a separate matter, the Center for Biological Diversity filed a notice of
intent to sue the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and other federal agencies
this April for failing to take measures against white-nose syndrome, a
mysterious disease that is killing off bats in the Northeast.
Among other things, the center asked the agencies to close all caves and
mines to recreational use where four federally listed bat species are found.
Mollie Matteson, a conservation advocate with the Center for Biological
Diversity, said that although white-nose syndrome is probably spread by the
bats themselves, people entering the caves can cause them stress and perhaps
exacerbate the problem.
"It seems to me that cave-dwelling habitat and cave-dwelling bats are
increasingly threatened," Matteson said.
In March, WildEarth Guardians sued the Secretary of the Interior in the U.S.
District Court for the District of Columbia for failing to make a
preliminary finding on two Endangered Species Act listing petitions that
cover 681 species, including about 100 cave species.
Jay Tutchton, general counsel for WildEarth Guardians, said these kinds of
suits would help protect caves "by protecting the most sensitive residents
of the caves."
He said that caves are threatened by groundwater pumping and pollution,
urban development such as highways and buildings, vandalism, guano mining,
and oil and gas drilling.
"Everything from teenagers having a party to some guy who doesn't know what
to do with his trash," Tutchton said. "It's the tragedy of having too many
people with glass beer bottles unsupervised.
"Most of the caves I've been to in the Untied States are fairly lifeless
because they've been so visited or abused," he added.
On the whole, litigation over federally listed cave species has not been as
contentious as litigation over other federally listed species.
"Grizzly bears or spotted owls have enormous ranges," said Tom Aley, a
professional hydrogeologist and president of the Ozark Underground
Laboratory in Missouri. "With cave fishes, generally you will have a
population site and seldom will it incorporate an area of more than 20
square miles. Many times it's much smaller."
He said the government and private entities have gotten better about
addressing potential problems early on before a lawsuit is filed.
"Go out and get the data you need. Avoid those surprises, because it's
pretty easy to get an injunction if you have missed an obvious step," said
Aley, who has been retained by a wide array of clients, including municipal
airports, state highway departments, private individuals and environmental
groups to delineate the recharge areas of cave systems.
He just finished a job for the city of Springfield, Mo., in which he
analyzed a well dug 25 feet deep with a pool of water at the bottom in order
to determine whether it was endangered cave fish habitat. It turned out that
there were fish at the site, but they were not cave dwellers, and the
project, a sewer line, was cleared to proceed as scheduled.
"It was similar in general appearance to many cave fish sites, so it was
certainly an appropriate thing to look at," Aley said.
Even when best practices haven't been followed, cave advocates often resort
to restoration work and educational efforts rather than lawsuits. The
American Cave Conservation Association, for example, directs efforts to keep
people out of ecologically sensitive caves, restore original air flows and
clean up dump sites that contribute to groundwater pollution.
It also helped to clean up Hidden River Cave in Kentucky, which was once
arguably the most polluted cave in the United States, according to Dave
Foster, executive director of the ACCA.
He said the public was generally unaware of risks to groundwater, and that
the law didn't offer much protection.
"Cave streams aren't really groundwater and they're not really surface
water," Foster said. "And the laws are written for groundwater and surface
water, so cave streams sometimes fall between the cracks."
He said that in cave country, which covers roughly 20 percent of the United
States, a farmer can throw a dead cow into a sinkhole and the bacteria from
that cow can be in someone's spring within a matter of hours.
"All Americans should care about the groundwater issue, whether they give a
hoot about whether a blind fish lives or not," Foster said.
Joel Stevenson, chair of the National Speleological Society's legal
committee, said there was more awareness of cave pollution now than there
was 25 or 30 years ago. Nonetheless, he pointed to a proposed highway in the
middle of a cave area in Kentucky as one example of a future threat.
"It's a never-ending fight," Stevenson said. "When you think you've won a
great battle, you find there's another threat coming along."
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IS this the world's deepest cave?
In China's mountainous village of Tian Xing, a team of British cave
explorers say they have discovered the world's deepest underground shaft.
Connected by two cave systems, Qikeng and Dong Ba, their combined depth
measures an astonishing 1026m.
Photographer Robert Shone spent two months with the climbers charting their
discovery beneath Tian Xing.
"I was invited to join an international caving expedition last September by
a friend of mine, Richard Gerrish, who lives and works out in Hong Kong,"
said the 28-year-old from Manchester.
"Along with a team of international climbers, we started our journey on the
surface at the entrance of the Miao Keng underground caves.
Descent
"Miao Keng (known as China's big shaft) is a 506 metre deep shaft and it
would take two hours for us to make the descent."
Camping underground for four to five-day periods the British team explored
the tunnels and passages at the base of the Miao Keng shaft.
"We were already aware of Miao Keng's 506 metre big shaft, but we wanted to
explore further," said Robbie.
"When we reached the bottom of the big shaft there is only one way off into
a stream way passage.
"The entire cave system, from the surface of the big shaft of Miao Keng, to
the lowest point of Dong Ba totalled more than 1026m in depth."
An experienced climber, Robbie has worked as an abseiler all over the world.
_http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1870159.ece_
(http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1870159.ece)
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
--- End Message ---
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Jerry Atkinson posted:
>IS this the world's deepest cave?
Not even close. At -1020 m (Bob Gulden's figure of record,
<http://www.caverbob.com/wdeep.htm>) (-1026 m in Sun report), Qikeng Dong is
83rd deepest in the world. Deepest is Krubera /Voronja at -2191 m, more than
_twice_ as deep! Qikeng Dong is the first 1000-m deep cave in China, however.
>Miao Keng (known as China's big shaft) is a 506 metre deep shaft
According to Gulden's list <http://www.caverbob.com/pit.htm> it is a
491-m shaft, which is the figure Erin Lynch gives. She keeps the database of
the Tianxing caves. It is number 7 in Gulden's list. There is even another
one in China that is deeper. Deepest is Vrtoglavica in Slovenia at 603 m. I
know that some of the deeper shafts are open to the surface, although Bob does
not note that in his list. It is possible this is the deepest in-cave shaft.
Mark Minton
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Does anyone have Lee Jay Grave's current phone number or email address ?
Please respond off digest.
Thanks,
Jerry.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
If you will be attending the dig this weekend, please contact me
offline, as I am some phone numbers for you that you may/may not need
this weekend.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 8:47 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] ... and Longhorn Caverns Dig, Saturday, Nov.
1st
Longhorn Cavern. There will be a concert in the cave Saturday night
after the dig:
http://www.longhorncaverns.com/schedule.html
November 1, 2008
The Lonesome Heroes
myspace.com/lonesomeheroes
http://www.myspace.com/lonesomeheroes
On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:09:58 -0500 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> Also, please consider helping out with the Longhorn Cavern Dig next
> weekend, Saturday, November 1st.
>
> We will be meeting at the visitors' center at Longhorn Caverns State
> Park at 9 AM and caravan from there to the Crownover entrance needing
> to be dug out.
>
> Please bring any tools and equipment that you might think is
> necessary, i.e., shovels, buckets (lots of good, sturdy ones), pigs or
> sleds for hauling dirt down the passageway, pick axes, etc., as well
> as your own water, food, and camping gear.
>
> Lyndon Tiu will have a campsite at Inks Lake SP for those arriving
> Friday night or you may camp at the Longhorn Caverns SP Picnic area
> both nights.
>
> Lyndon will post a note at the Park Office letting you know where he
> is camped at.
>
>
>
> Thanks and have a good weekend!
>
>
>
> Mark Alman
>
>
>
--
Lyndon Tiu
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