We have just examined the credibility of Achar’s chronology. Now for an examination of the credibility of my chronology:
III. My Internal and Relative/Absolute Chronology for the Rigveda. Achar claims that the chronology for the Rigveda derived from his astronomical investigations “does not agree with either the relative or absolute chronology proposed by Talageri”, or, in other words, that my relative chronology and absolute chronology for the Rigveda are wrong. By “relative” here, it appears he may be referring to the internal chronology for the different books of the Rigveda given in my book, since he stresses the fact that his dates cut across the different books of the Rigveda without exhibiting a particular order or pattern. Hence, it will be pertinent to examine the correctness of my internal chronology and my absolute chronology for the Rigveda. 1. Internal Chronology: I have shown in my books that the ten books of the Rigveda were composed in the following order: 6,3,7,4,2,5,8,9,10 (with parts of book 1 spanning the periods of composition of books 4,2,5,8,9,10); and that they were composed as follows: books 6,3,7 in the Early Rigvedic period, books 4,2 in the Middle Rigvedic period, and books 5,1,8,9,10 in the Late Rigvedic period (the hymns of book 1 having been given their final form in the Late Rigvedic period, this book must be included in that period). Michael Witzel, in his review of my earlier book, writes: “the composition of the RV occurred in complex layers ― not in the tidy sequential patterns imagined by Talageri” (WITZEL 2001:§1). Achar seems to hold similar views ― that the different books of the Rigveda were not composed in any sequential order but in sporadic spurts of composition which cut across the different books of the Rigveda. Now, in any analysis of the internal chronology of the Rigveda, the division of the 1028 hymns into 10 books should prima facie have been taken as suggestive of the possibility that the different books were composed in different periods rather than that they represent mixed collections with no reference to period of composition. This possibility could have been abandoned if the data indicated otherwise, but the data, far from suggesting otherwise, massively reinforces it in every possible way. To begin with, the western academic scholars themselves (see TALAGERI 2008:132-135 for details) have classified the books of the Rigveda into two groups: the family books (2-7) and the non-family books (1, 8-10), and testified, on the basis of their own analyses, that the family books were composed and compiled before the non-family books. Further, they have detached book 5 from the other family books and concluded that it agrees with the non-family books rather than with the other family books. By their analysis, the books of the Rigveda can be classified into three categories: the earlier family books (2-4, 6-7), the later family book (5), and the later non-family books (1, 8-10). This fully agrees with my own classification into Early books (6,3,7), Middle (4,2) and Late books (5,1,8,9,10); except that the Early and Middle books are clubbed together in one category in the western classification, and the internal order within the groups is not analyzed. [In sum, we get four categories: Early family books 6,3,7; Middle family books 4,2; Late family book 5; and Late non-family books 1,8,9,10] It will be seen that every analysis of the data reinforces this classification: An analysis of the (ancestor-descendant) relationships between the composers of the hymns establishes the chronological order 6,3,7,4,2,5,8,9,10 (1 alongside 4-10) (TALAGERI 2000:37-50). An analysis of the references within the hymns to earlier or contemporaneous composers (TALAGERI 2000:53-58) and to the kings and (non-composer) ṛṣis mentioned within the hymns (TALAGERI 2000:59-65) confirms the above chronological order. An analysis of the (adherence to “purity” of the) family identity of the composers of the individual books (TALAGERI 2000:50-52) confirms the exactitude of the above chronological order, with a steady progression in dilution of the family identity of the composers from book 6 (in which every single hymn and verse is composed by composers belonging to one branch of one family) to book 10 (where every single family has hymns, and a large number of hymns are by composers who are either unaffiliated to any family or whose family is unidentifiable). An analysis of the system of ascriptions of hymns to composers (TALAGERI 2000:52-53) shows a quantum change from the Early and Middle books (6,3,7,4,2), where hymns are composed by descendant ṛṣis in the name of their ancestor ṛṣis, to the Late Books (5,1,8,9,10), where hymns are composed by ṛṣis in their own names. An analysis of a large category of personal name types shared in common by the Rigveda with the Avesta and the Mitanni (TALAGERI 2008:20-43) shows a fundamental distinction between the Early and Middle books on the one hand and the Late books on the other, with these name-types being found in 386 hymns in the Late books (and in all other post-Rigvedic texts), but found in the Early and Middle books in only 8 hymns which have been classified by the western academic scholars as Late or interpolated hymns within these books. An analysis of another category of personal names shared by the Rigveda with the Avesta (TALAGERI 2008:16-20, 47-48) shows a fundamental distinction between the Early books on the one hand and the Middle and Late books on the other, with these names being found in 60 hymns in the Middle books and in 63 hymns in the Late books (and in all other post-Rigvedic texts), but completely missing in the Early books. An analysis of the geographical names and terms in the Rigveda (TALAGERI 2000:94-136, TALAGERI 2008:81-129) shows a progression from east to west, with the eastern names found distributed throughout the Rigveda and the western names appearing in the books in chronological progression. And again, these names (found in all other post-Rigvedic texts) reinforce the above chronological order: the Indus and rivers to its west are found named in the Middle and Late books, but are missing in the Early books. The names of western animals, places, mountains and lakes are found in the Late non-family books, but are missing in the family books (Early, Middle and Late). An analysis of other important and historically significant words (TALAGERI 2008: 48-49, 189-200) again reinforces the above chronological order: for example, spoked wheels, or spokes, invented in the late third millennium BCE, and camels and donkeys, domesticated in Central Asia around the same time, are found in the Late books, but missing in the Early and Middle books. An analysis of the meters used in the composition of the hymns of the Rigveda (TALAGERI 2008:54-80) again reinforces the above chronological order. The dimetric meters used in the Rigveda clearly developed from each other in the following order: gāyatrī (8+8+8), anuṣṭubh (8+8+8+8), pankti (8+8+8+8+8), mahāpankti (8+8+8+8+8+8) and dimeter śakvarī (8+8+8+8+8+8+8). Gāyatrī and anuṣṭubh are found throughout the Rigveda; pankti is found in the Late (family and non-family) books, but missing in the Early and Middle books; mahāpankti and dimeter śakvarī are found in the Late non-family books, and are missing in the family books (Early, Middle and Late). An analysis of the sacred numerical formulae in the Rigveda (HOPKINS 1896b) shows that the use of certain numbers, in sacred numerical formulae used as phrases in the hymns, is commonly found in the Late books, but missing in the Early and Middle books. A detailed and path-breaking analysis (HOPKINS 1896a) shows large categories of words found in the Late books (1,8,9,10, and often 5), but missing in the Early (6,3,7) and Middle books (4,2) except in a few stray hymns classified by the western academic scholars as Late or interpolated hymns within these books. These include such categories as words pertaining to ploughing or to other paraphernalia of agriculture, words associated with certain occupations and technologies (and even with what could be interpreted as the earliest references to the castes), words where the r is replaced by l (playoga and pulu for prayoga and puru), a very large number of personal names (not having to do with the name types, common to the Rigveda, Avesta and Mitanni records, analyzed by me), various suffixes and prefixes used in the formation of compound words, certain mythical or socio-religious concepts (Sūrya as an Āditya, Indra identified with the Sun, the discus as a weapon of Indra and the three-edged or three-pointed form of this weapon, etc), various grammatical forms (cases of the resolution of the vowel in the genitive plural of ā stems, some transition forms common in later literature, the Epic weakening of the perfect stem, the adverb adas, etc.), particular categories of words (Soma epithets like madacyuta, madintara/madintama, the names of the most prominent meters used in the Rigveda, etc.), certain stylistic peculiarities (the use of reduplicated compounds like mahāmaha, calācala, the use of alliteration, the excessive use of comparatives and superlatives, etc.), and many, many more. Also, Hopkins notes many words which are used in one sense in the earlier books, and in a different sense in the later books: words like muni, tīrtha, vaiśvānara, hita, etc., or which are only used as adjectives in the earlier books, but figure as names in the later books (he cites śaviṣṭha, svarṇara, durgaha, prajāpatin, adhrigu as examples) [note also words like atri, kutsa and auśija (TALAGERI 2000:79-88), which have a different sense in the earlier books as against the later books, and even the word trita, which is a name in the later books but occurs once with the meaning “third” in book 6]. The evidence in support of the chronological order 6,3,7,4,2,5,(1),8,9,10, given in my book, and most especially for the division into Early, Middle and Late books, is too massive, overwhelming and uni-directional to be dismissed on the basis of dates derived by any “astronomical” analysis of references in the Rigveda, even were we to ignore the fact that these references are actually fictitious or non-existent ones as we saw above. In fact, the very fact that his methods give Achar a range of dates which cut across the different books should lead him to radically rethink the validity of his approach and conclusions. 2. Relative/Absolute Chronology: Achar notes that I have dated the Early books 6,3,7 at 3400-2600 BCE, the Middle books 4,2 at 2600-2200 BCE, and the Late books 5,1,8,9,10 at 2200-1400 BCE, and he finds this incompatible with the dates for the Rigveda derived by him on the basis of astronomical references in the Rigveda, which range “from 7000 BCE-2200 BCE”. Even without reference to Achar’s “astronomical” dates, I feel that perhaps some clarifications are due on my part with regard to my dates for the three periods of the Rigveda: 1. In the first place, I had given more or less the same range of dates in my second book (TALAGERI 2000:75-78): i.e. I had categorically stated that “by a conservative estimate, the total period of composition of the Rigveda must have covered a period of at least two millenniums”. As I have always stood for a date in the mid-second millennium BCE as most likely for the Mahābhārata war (see TALAGERI 1993:), this automatically indicated a range of dates 3500-1500 BCE or so. But this was my estimate: I had no means of proving my dates, and nor did I foresee at the time that I would be proving anything in the foreseeable future. And I felt my dates could err on the conservative side: that the earlier dates could possibly go even further back in time than 3500 BCE. But this was also an estimate and could be wrong. Either way, I knew I was in no position, then, to justify or defend my views. However, my analysis (in my third book, TALAGERI 2008:1-201) of the names and culture common to the Rigveda, the Avesta and the Mitanni records conclusively showed that this culture, in West Asia, already represented the remnants or residual elements (as western scholars like Mallory and Witzel put it) of a long dead ancestral culture, while in India it was the culture of the Late books and hymns of the Rigveda, which was preceded by the earlier culture of the Middle and Early books of the Rigveda whose geographical data showed them to be composed in the areas to the east of the Sarasvatī river within India. In short, the ancestors of the Mitanni kings of West Asia, and of the Kassite kings before them, were emigrants from India during the Late Rigvedic period (i.e. during the period of the Late books and hymns). As the Mitanni kingdom, in parts of Syria and Iraq, flourished from around 1500 BCE or so, and the Kassites were known two centuries before them in around the same areas, the Vedic ancestors of these Mitanni and Kassite kings must have left India at the very latest by the last centuries of the third millennium BCE. So what I have proved in my third book is only about the Late Rigvedic period: I have conclusively shown that the Late Rigvedic period was in progress as early as the last centuries of the third millennium BCE. But this still does not tell us anything about when this Late Rigvedic period started, or what range of dates we should assign to the Middle Rigvedic period which preceded the Late Rigvedic period, and to the Early Rigvedic period which preceded both. We can still only estimate all these earlier dates, and my earlier estimates still hold good (and still as conservative ones). 2. Can the above situation be coordinated with the general Indian claim that the Mahābhārata war took place around 3100 BCE, and that the Rigveda was also completed by then: that the Late Rigvedic period therefore extends backwards far beyond 3100 BCE, and that the ancestors of the Mitanni and Kassite kings migrated westwards some time after the war (anytime between 3100 BCE and 2000 BCE), while the culture of the Late Rigvedic period continued to remain the culture of northernmost India for over a millennium after the completion of the Rigveda in 3100 BCE? This would be a pleasant idea, but it would require a great deal of stretching of the facts and a great many wishful assumptions: Just as the Mitanni records reasonably prove that the beginnings of the Late Rigvedic period can not be later than 2000 BCE, there are other opposing factors which reasonably prove that the ending of the Late Rigvedic period can not be before 2000 BCE: the references to spoked wheels (which were invented in the last centuries of the third millennium BCE) and to domesticated camels and donkeys (also found domesticated in Central Asia at around the same time), all of which appear in the Late books and hymns of the Rigveda. It would be impossible for a Rigveda completed around 3100 BCE to refer to spokes, camels or donkeys. Also, the sudden rise of numerous personal names ending in -aśva and –ratha, found in the Late books and hymns (but missing in the Early and Middle books) and in the Avesta and the Mitanni-Kassite records, also testifies to the new culture of the spoked-wheeled chariot. It cannot even be argued that the references to spokes, camels and donkeys, and to personal names ending in -aśva and –ratha, may be post-Rigvedic interpolations into a Rigveda actually completed in 3100 BCE, not only because it would be pointless quibbling against the facts and data, but because these words are distributed too smoothly over the different Late books of the Rigveda, and too integral a part of the books, to be interpolations; also, if they had been interpolations, they would have been interpolated into hymns in the Early and Middle books as well. Even otherwise, the cultural atmosphere of the Mahābhārata is also one rich in horse-driven chariots with spoked wheels, which would be natural in 1500 BCE but not in 3100 BCE. Also, it may be noted that the only notable name of an actual Mahābhārata character (excluding mythical persons like Yayātī and his sons) mentioned in the Rigveda is Śantanu, the grandfather of Dhṛtarāṣṭra and Paṇḍu, who appears in a hymn composed by his brother Devāpī in book 10, the last and latest book of the Rigveda. This confirms that the Mahābhārata took place at a time subsequent to the invention of spokes and the domestication of the camel and donkey (all of which appear in all the earlier Late books). Therefore, the date for the Mahābhārata war and for the completion of the Rigveda must be placed in the mid-second-millennium BCE rather than in the late fourth millennium BCE. 3. The Late Rigvedic period was in progress at the turn of the third-second millennium BCE, but it can only be a matter of speculation as to when this Late period started and the earlier or Middle Rigvedic period ended. The beginnings of the Early Rigvedic period would therefore be a matter of the most pure speculation of all, at least from the point of view of textual evidence. All that can be definitely said is that the beginnings of the Early Rigvedic period must go far back beyond the second half of the third millennium BCE, since it was still the Late Rigvedic period which must have been in progress throughout most or the whole of this half-millennium. How far back can only be a matter of speculation, but my estimate is that extremely early dates like 7000 BCE or even 5000 BCE, while not impossible dates, are not very likely ones. If someone can prove me wrong with convincing or even feasible evidence, even astronomical (but convincing astronomical) evidence, I will be really happy. But mere wishful thinking can not take the place of data and logic. As to when the Late period started, all that can be said is that the Late books of the Rigveda can be again divided into three groups: book 5 is undoubtedly the oldest of the Late books, and stands out from the rest in being a family book, in having the pankti meter (but not yet the mahāpankti and śakvarī), and in being still unacquainted with western animals, places, lakes and mountains. Book 10 is undoubtedly the latest, being distinguished from all the other nine books in countless ways. And books 1,8,9 form a group between these two books. The only question now is: did the ancestors of the Mitanni kings migrate from India during the period of composition of book 5, or the period of books1-8-9, or the period of book 10? In effect, the later, within the Late period, they migrated from India, the further back from 2000 BCE the Late period can be speculated to have started. But even if they left in the earliest of the three periods, the period of book 5, the starting point of the Late Rigvedic period still goes back beyond 2000 BCE at the latest. [The rare name Indrota, common to the Mitanni records and book 8, however, would indicate that the Mitanni left well after the period of book 8, and this pushes the beginnings of the Late Rigvedic period much further back]. 4. Another important point which must be clarified here is the relative position of the other Vedic texts (the other Samhitās, the Brāhmaṇas, the Āraṇyakas, the Upaniṣads and the Sūtras) vis-à-vis the Rigveda in terms of their period of composition. If the Rigveda was completed by 1400 BCE or so, does this mean that the other texts follow each other in a chronological line after 1400 BCE? Assuming that this is so would be wrong. There is nothing to indicate that the periods of the different texts are mutually exclusive. While the points of completion of the different texts may indeed be in line with their hitherto accepted chronological order, there is no reason to believe that the entire bodies (so to say) of the different texts were necessarily composed in mutually exclusive periods. The composition of the oldest texts in most of these categories may already have started at different points of time in the Late Rigvedic period, along with the composition of the hymns in the Late books of the Rigveda: it is only that the Rigveda was preserved with much greater care and exactitude than the other texts and therefore the Late books preserved older linguistic forms than the other Vedic texts. The exact chronological details must await detailed investigation, including an examination of genuine astronomical details or data which may be available in these texts. To end on a personal note: there is, it is possible, sometimes a certain tendency to tactlessness, or the use of seemingly rude words, phrases, or even punctuation marks or emphasis in my writings, which may be interpreted wrongly by the reader, especially if I am examining views or analyses with which I am not in agreement and which I am criticizing. This is the case regardless of whether I am examining the writings or claims of noble personalities from the past like Tilak or Aurobindo, whom all Indians, myself no less than any other, hold in great respect, or whether I am criticizing the writings of western scholars like Witzel, who are not known for any particular consideration for the people whom they themselves criticize in their writings. This is a fault in my writing style which can antagonize as well as distract from the objective issues under discussion. Please, Achar or whoever else may be reading this article, excuse any seeming boorishness on my part, and take note only of the objective issues I have dealt with. QUOTE : The Ramayana seems to localize the Uttarakurus in Bahlika country.[34] According to it, Ila, son of Prajapati Karddama, king of Bahli (Bahlika) country, gave up Bahli in favor of his son Sasabindu and founded the city of Pratisthana in Madhyadesa. The princes of the Aila dynasty (which is also the dynasty of Kurus) have been called Karddameya.[35][36] The Karddameyas obtained their names from river Kardama in Persia and therefore, their homeland is identified with Bahlika or Bactria.[37][38] This indicates that Bahlika or Bactria was the original home of the Kuru clans. UNQUOTEHowever, in other references in the Pauranic and Vedic literature, they (Bahlikas, Kambojas etc. who inhabit Uttar Kuru) are referred to as Mlechhas. Further, in Raghuvamsa, there is a conquest described by Indian king Raghu to Transaxonia (I have only read the Wiki article on that). This too seems to be conflicting. Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx K RAJARAM IRS 29526 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Thatha_Patty" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/thatha_patty/CAL5XZooPRQzrW0egMDNAW_9M0tA%3DCrRXjk%3DrWr07RaecV%3DP5PQ%40mail.gmail.com.
