Thanks for your reply Danielo - and, Richard, thanks for your also.
>> - No quality assurance of add-ons
>>
>> Since I programmed several plugins and widgets I would like to know which
> of them you consider to do not have enough "quality". [...]
>
I'm not saying a single one does not have enough quality. I'm just saying
we don't have any quality assurance. At least not in any consistent day.
That's just a fact. (Personally, I stand in awe when I look at the things
you guys put together.)
Example why this is of importance: *"Hm, is it really a good idea to
install these things they call plugins just like that`? What about viruses?
...And which add-ons are for my needs anyway?"* A regular non-coding user
is pretty much in the dark here. He is forced go snoop around on the
boards. ("*Oh, my embarassing English... hm, I'll just skip it"*) You and I
know it's worth the effort... but a newbie doesn't and at this early stage
we risk losing him. Would *you* install an app on your cellphone that you
don't trust? You know you can relax if you get things from, say, iOS App
Store because they have strict quality controls. There is no way the app
store would be as successful as it is otherwise (and not iPhone either for
that matter).
I don't think we'll ever have the resources for anything comparable to the
App Store quality control. But there are other ways: Imagine if we had,
say, a "most popular plugins" list. Or if there was a place for reading and
writing reviews. Maybe an optional sensor in installed(!) plugins stating
"new update available". Maybe a "likes" rating system. Or an "inter-system"
showing which addons are common together (i.e work well), or where people
can write that "plugin A conflicts with theme B" and this is then visible
in their respective download places. These would all contribute to a kind
of social quality assurance.
Or, even a simple solution here on the boards; Individual threads dedicated
to individual addons. Subject [Theme: Snowwhite] with a restricted kind of
information.
Trying to bring this back to the more general perspective: I estimate an
increasing need for ways to deal with add meta-data for add-ons, possibly
directly connected with the physical tiddlers. This will probably be extra
important for the node.js versions and if several people share tiddlers.
>
>> - Lacking documentation
>>
>> I have to agree with you. I used to complain about this. After several
> complaints more I started to write more documentation.
>
We have Erics exciting "Inside TiddlyWiki" indiegogo project and we have
ambitious individual efforts - most notably Jeremy on tw.com, but
previously also from several individuals for TWC sharing wonderful but,
unavoidably, with both lacking and overlapping information. The non tw.com
efforts also suffer from the "dispersity problem" ie that users don't know
where to look or even that it exists.
However, as is obvious from the boards, there is just no end to questions.
There are some common/recurring issues - many I assume Eric is aiming at -
but the overall picture is clear by now: A few individuals can't solve the
documentation need satisfactorily. Other than guides at tw.com, the closest
thing we have is perhaps tw.org (initiated by Tobias but where anyone who
has a tiddlyspace account can edit)... but, again, it relies on individual
effort.
I have ideas for a completely different take on this (actually discussed
with Eric some time back) where you'd instead *convert our board
discussions* into gradually refining documentation, in the form of a TW.
Kind of a copy of the discussion threads but with a summary at top. And
extremely easy to modify or add information to e.g "like" buttons or and
adding predefined tags, to name two things that would affect search.
Perhaps add a star on post to set it as the starting point for the summary.
Or, next to a paragraph in a tiddler, click "add to summary" or "delete".
Even one single of these actions would add value and documentation would
form in an almost organic way. Add to that system recognition of plugin
names (eg to create pretty links), possibilty to create filters,
possibility to drag-copy tiddlers into your private TW's...
Unfortunately, even if someone were to build this (I' have been informed
that the *basic* concept is actually simple to build) - even if someone
were to build it, the idea relies on that people actually find the place
(the dispersity problem again). But if documentation is considered
important enough then maybe a good solution would be hosted at some
obvious-to-go-to place.
>
>> - The aggregated knowledge from discussions relies on 3d part system
>> not optimized for us
>>
>> I have to agree with you here. Google groups lacks some important
> features like editing post. This is useful to make FAQs and list of
> resources.
>
For example the just mentioned documentation idea would solve this. We'd
not have to deal with the poor archive search engine here (what company was
that running this again?). And we wouldnt have to worry as much about
Google Groups joining Google Wave, Buzz, .... We would still need a
communication system if that happened tho.
I get sad when I think of all the *fantastic* answers provided here that
are probably almost never looked at again. Sooo much knowledge and such
generosity in helping.
>
>> - Little insight into what attracts new users
>> - Little insight of user needs, tw applications, behaviors etc
>>
>>
> If you have ideas about this please share with us.
>
Well, I think the only way to find out is by "measuring". For instance, I
would gladly send in my plugin list to be used with other peoples plugin
lists for analyzing patterns such as which plugins are often used together
etc. Or, if a site hosted a collection of application themes;
"notebooktheme", "gtdtheme", "booklibrarytheme", "multimediatheme" then we
could get very clear indications.
IMO one of the most important (and tricky?) questions is not what attracts
new users but what makes potential users dismiss TW. Maybe it is lack of
information about what it can do? Maybe they think it to be too
complicated? Maybe a developer says "Html, JS, CSS? Pfff! I don't want to
make silly homepages!" Maybe a school teacher is thinking "Oh, what a pity
it doesn't have more colors?" We just don't know. And we don't know how
many we loose. (Maybe none?)
>
>> - Challenging to get tiddlyverse overview (resources, applications,
>> options, services, people...)
>>
>> I agree. We still need a repository of resources.
>
>>
>> - Demanding learning curve for customization
>>
>> Everything needs a learning curve for customization advanced use. If you
> wan use TW like notepad is quite easy. Do you know how many things you can
> do with excel for example? Pivot tables, conditional formatting, importing
> data from external sources, macros.... all of them needs a BIG learning
> curve.
>
I'm saying it from a pragmatic point, to get more people into the
community. The more demanding, the less people that accept it. If the
learning curve is the bottle neck for whatever goals there are for TW then
maybe it's worth putting focus on it. Besides, you can look on things from
other perspectives; perhaps we could minimize the need for customization?
>
>> - Too few developers (I'm just assuming this is always an issue)
>>
>> I am one of them. Try to keep us happy :D
>
You are my heroes. Not only do I try to keep you happy but I am also
searching for ways on how us non-developers can contribute. As mentioned, I
think the most valuable thing non-developers can do is to bring others here.
In conclusion... for this post at least: I talk, and talk is cheap. But my
intention was not really to discuss specific "solutions". It was more an
attempt to find out what high-level areas are on the radar and the thoughts
about them.
<:-)
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