Dider Very interesting stuff regarding the HP 5334A/B, and I have asked Rick if he considers the "A" model to be worth picking up - I note that you have the "B" version - I have an "A" version in sight, but would you hold out for the "B", what's your opinion ?
Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Didier Juges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 2:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5334B C-channel--was Re: Which HP FrequencyCounter? > Rick, > > Thanks for the interesting bit of history. > > I remember a previous post where you told us about the difficult choices > you > had to make for the standard "reference" oscillator, which is certainly > not > one of the strong point of the instrument. Mine is hooked up to a > Thunderbolt GPSDO, so the oscillator is not used. > > Can you tell us the reasons why the standard (no C channel option) 5334B > has > most of the parts needed for the C channel except for the counter and two > Shottky packages? > > I understand even at $2 the MB506 may have been considered "expensive", > but > there are 3 amplifiers (MMIC or BJT?) and a bunch of parts around for > biasing and coupling, and of the two counters I have without option C, > they > have all these parts already installed, except for the MB506 and the two > Shottkys. > > It looks as if the 5334B was originally intended to have the C channel as > standard, and then the marketing folks decided to make it an option after > the boards were built, but the (two HP 5334B) counters I have are fairly > recent, in the history of the product, so that scenario does not make much > sense. > > I must add that I really like my 5334B, I have about a dozen counters here > and the HP 5334B is the one that gets the job first, which is the reason I > would like to add the C channel. That would eliminate one more reason to > use > either one of the EIPs or the Advantest. > > Didier KO4BB > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard >> (Rick) Karlquist >> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:31 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5334B C-channel--was Re: Which HP >> Frequency Counter? >> >> I was the project manager and chief EE on the HP5334B >> project. The 5334A had a C channel using an HP made divide >> by 10 prescaler that had a factory cost of ~$100. >> In the 5334B, I replaced this with the Fujitsu MB506 divide >> by 8 prescaler, which cost something like $2. >> The firmware was changed slightly to account for the >> different modulus. This is the ONLY difference in firmware >> between the 5334A and 5334B counters. >> I considered using the NEC uPB581/2 prescalers. This class >> of prescalers is based on "dynamic" flip flops, as opposed to >> static ones. These flip flops are only intended for >> prescaling a clean signal from a local oscillator in a >> synthesizer. In a frequency counter application, they work >> OK on a new clean signal, but will miscount on noisy signals. >> "Noisy" here refers to broadband noise, not close in phase >> noise. Prescalers are especially sensitive to low frequency noise. >> >> Now it can be told that we used to test all C channels in all >> models with an HP8660 synthesizer. This was not one of HP's >> best designs, and it has a lot of broadband noise. [The >> designers of this unfortunate product redeemed themselves >> with the 8662, one of HP's flagship products]. In order to >> properly count the >> 1.3 GHz signal from the 8660, it was necessary to use a high >> pass filter to keep the 8660's broadband noise from >> corrupting the measurement. This was also the case for the >> previous HP-made divide by 10 prescaler. >> >> I put a LOT of effort into evaluating various prescalers and >> trying to put in mitigation measures such as rolling off the >> low frequencies before they could get to the prescaler. I >> eventually decided that the task was hopeless with off the >> shelf prescalers. >> >> At the same time, one of the other designers in the lab was >> working on the 5386 counter, and naturally we compared notes. >> This counter used an HP-made static flip flop. >> The FF used in the 5334A was made at the Santa Clara bipolar >> silicon fab. The FF used in the 5386 was made in the Santa >> Rosa fab. Whether it was the process or the circuit design, >> the Santa Rosa FF was absolutely bullet proof. It made error >> free measurements of the lousiest signals. The designer of >> the 5386 delighted in finding new signals to measure and >> inviting me to a "bake-off" to see who's counter did better. >> Of course, I always lost these contests miserably! >> >> I would encourage owners of 5334B's w/o the C channel option >> to consider trying modern static flip flops from vendors such >> as Micrel and OnSemi, rather than installing the MB506. You >> can easily glue an SMT prescaler to the board upside down in >> the footprint where the MB506 goes, and then connect the >> "dead bug" with little wires to the MB506 connections. >> >> Rick Karlquist N6RK >> >> >> Didier Juges wrote: >> > The HP 5334A or B with the C channel option has a >> sensitivity spec of >> > -30dBm (from memory) up to 1 GHz or so. The C channel has 15mV rms >> > sensitivity at 1 GHz. >> > >> > The C channel option is rare, but it only requires 3 parts >> (a diviser >> > and two dual-shottkys) and a connector (and a hole in the >> front panel) >> > to add it to a 5334B for instance. I have two 5334Bs (one >> is broken) >> > and both have the other parts required for the C channel except for >> > these three. There is a socket for the diviser, the >> shottkys have to be soldered in. >> > >> > The C channel input is activated on pressing the '9' key. >> > >> > Unfortunately, the MB506 diviser (Fujitsu) seems a little hard to >> > find. If anyone has a spare, let me know. A surface mount >> equivalent >> > should not be too hard to put in. >> > >> > The HP 5316 has similar characteristics and also has a 1 >> GHz option, >> > which is also rare. >> > >> > I also have an Advantest TR5823 counter which has the 1.3 GHz input >> > with 20mV rms sensitivity at 1.3 GHz. >> > >> > The HP models have reciprocal counting, so they work MUCH >> better for >> > low frequency signals. >> > >> > Didier KO4BB >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jean-Christophe >> >> Deschamps >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:49 AM >> >> To: time-nuts@febo.com >> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Which HP Frequency Counter? >> >> >> >> Dear group, >> >> >> >> I consider buying a used lab frequency counter / timer --preferably >> >> HP/Agilent-- covering from few mHz to perhaps 400 MHz. >> I'm worried >> >> that models handling high frequencies seem to be limited >> to under 100 >> >> mV input signal max. I don't want to destroy an input channel each >> >> other day when calibrating/repairing some instrument. >> Also are there >> >> instruments with high impedance input? 50 Ohm is not quite >> right for >> >> investigation in the guts of most designs. >> >> >> >> >> >> Is it possible to find a not-too-old model under $800? I >> would like >> >> to find something in France or UK or Europe, but it seems >> hopeless in >> >> this budget. I would favor a repairable model (with available >> >> service docs & schematics). >> >> >> >> Your expert advises are more than welcome! >> >> >> >> -- >> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> >> Checked by AVG. >> >> Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1319 - Release >> >> Date: 3/8/2008 10:14 AM >> >> >> >> >> > >> > No virus found in this outgoing message. >> > Checked by AVG. >> > Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1319 - Release Date: >> > 3/8/2008 >> > 10:14 AM >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, >> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1328 - Release >> Date: 3/13/2008 11:31 AM >> >> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1328 - Release Date: 3/13/2008 > 11:31 AM > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.