WarrenS wrote:
Bruce
Thanks for your response, as always you've give me plenty to think about.
Bruce said: It is essential to understand exactly how this system
works in theory.
Turns out to be too true.
After re-reading your last post several times,
I now finally understand what you are saying and why you are saying it.
It is because YOU do not yet understand how this method works.
I find that so unbelievable, that I had not considered that possibility.
Starting at the following line and pretty much everything after that,
although accurate statements,
THEY DO NOT APPLY to this method.
To recover the phase fluctuations the EFC voltage has to be integrated.
...
ws
Warren
You seem to be the only one who doesn't understand the theory.
I understand exactly how the method as implemented by NBS is intended to
work.
Your ad hoc assumptions about the details of the method are false.
You admit to not knowing how to calculate how your implementation
responds to different phase noise spectra and yet you confidently
proclaim there will be no problems in interpreting the results?
Bruce
***************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths"
<bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tight PLL Tester
It is essential to understand exactly how this system works in theory.
No amount of hand waving or protestations will make its problems go
away if you use inappropriate signal processing methods.
The tight PLL (or any other PLL) forces the VCO (VCOXO int this case)
to servo the fluctuations in the phase difference between the test
oscillator and the VCO to zero within the PLL bandwidth.
To recover the phase fluctuations (assuming linearity of the VCO
response to its voltage control input) the EFC voltage has to be
integrated.
Leaving aside the problems of saturation with most (but not all)
integrators, the phase fluctuations at the output of the VCO can be
recovered (to within a scale factor) by sampling the integrator
output to produce a set of synthesized phase samples. Alternatively
one can calculate the first differences of the periodic sequence of
phase samples to produce a series of scaled frequency averages.
In practice integrator saturation can be avoided by one of the
following methods:
1) Using a precision voltage to frequency converter and a counter to
form the integrator.
This is how NIST used to do it.
The VFC110 from TI appears suitable.
Avoid using a synchronous VFC (eg AD652) as they suffer from
injection locking effects:
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/tutorials/MT-028.pdf
However if one samples the VFC integrator output at the end of each
integration the effect of injection locking can be corrected for.
DVMs like the HP/Agilent 34401A use a variation of this technique.
Another thing to be aware of is that a DVM may have a built in RC low
pass filter between its input terminals and its ADC.
The effect of this may be significant if the averaging time
(integration period) is too short.
2) Use an integrating DVM to sample the EFC voltage.
The DVM samples are equivalent (to within a scale factor) to a set of
frequency average samples.
However most (but not all) DVMs have a finite deadtime between
successive integrations, where the internal integrator is rundown for
example.
If one uses an integrating DVM with finite deadtime then the
calculated values of ADEV should be corrected using the bias
functions tabulated in NBS special publication 140 and elsewhere:
http://digicoll.manoa.hawaii.edu/techreports/PDF/NBS140.pdf
3) The PLL has a finite bandwidth so one can sample it at a
sufficiently high rate (> 2X PLL bandwidth as the PLL isnt a
brickwall filter) and calculate the required frequency averages from
the sampled data. Unless a very high oversampling rate is used merely
averaging the values of a fixed number of samples will be
insufficiently accurate. Attempts to use an arbitrary low pass filter
to average the samples will bias the results. The averaging filter
must have a frequency response that is very close to the sinc
response of an integrator with an integration period equal to the
sample interval.
However this method is the most expensive as a high resolution ADC
capable of relatively high sampling rates (10x the PLL bandwidth??)
is required.
It is also essential to have sufficient isolation between the unit
under test and the VCO to avoid significant mutual injection locking
effects.
To a first approximation such injection locking affects the PLL
parameters so that the PLL loop parameters need to be measured whilst
the PLL is closed when isolation is insufficient.
If one uses one of the Minicircuits phase detectors rather than an
arbitrary mixer then the isolation between the phase detector inputs
is much higher (at low frequencies at least) than that for most
mixers. Depending on the reverse isolation of the output buffers of
the oscillators being compared this isolation may be sufficient to
avoid an appreciable change in the PLL parameters. If the isolation
is insufficient one then needs to use a suitable isolation amplifier
between the the output of each oscillator and the phase detector.
The phase noise of the isolation amplifier should be lower than that
of the reference VCO (VCOCXO in this case).
Suitable isolation amplifiers are readily available as are circuit
schematics for isolation amplifiers known to have low phase noise you
can build for youself.
Just building an isolation amplifier using fast opamps or cascaded
MMICs without verifying the resultant phase noise is counterproductive.
Bruce
WarrenS wrote:
If there are any Nuts out there interested in helping to make
available to other Freq-Nuts a SIMPLE tester that I have found to be
a VERY useful low cost tool, contact me off line.
warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com
The tool is based on an OLD but seldom used method called the
"Tight Phase-Lock Loop Method of measuring Freq stability".
For a block diagram and short description see Figure 1.7 at
http://tf.nist.gov/phase/Properties/one.htm#oneone
What I have made for my own use is a bread board of a simple analog
version of the NIST's block diagram.
There are of course many different ways to actually build it,
depending on ones preferences, skills, and junk box.
It can be done using a DVM, or a high or low resolution ADC, or a
freq counter, or counter IC chips, a Pic or any simple micro, or a
sound card, Or many other ways.
The nice thing about the method is that it takes no expensive or
critical parts to get performance as good as most anything out there.
Its main performance limitation is ONLY the single EFC OSC used as
the reference.
My unit works 'Good enough' to be able to test many of the things
that Freq nuts are concerned with.
Basically it is nothing more than a high speed freq difference
detector that can detect VERY small freq changes in a very short time.
What one then does with that data is where the flexibility comes from.
I've used mine for AVARs plots, detecting very small freq
modulation due to PS noise, freq offset plots, setting an osc on
freq in seconds instead of what can take hours, GPSDO Noise and TC
test, etc. etc. The list is almost endless.
Some advantages of a tight PLL method are:
1) It is very simple, cheap and easy to build, and small
2) Works well for comparing an Oscillators Freq offset, Freq Noise,
Freq modulation, over short time intervals
3) It provides very good sub pico Second Phase resolution even with
simple setups.
4) Its noise floor is low enough so that its limitation is the
Reference Osc.
5) The NIST says it can be used to one part in 1e14. I'm getting
better than 1e12 from it, limited by the HP10811 Ref Osc I use.
6) Would be easy to make into a PC board project for Time nuts that
don't access to all the high end equipment.
7) I have a working breadboard that I built from just my junk box
parts that has worked great for me for several different things
Some of its disadvantages:
1) It is not the best way to take long term phase drift differences,
where a simple phase difference device will work great.
2) It is not a DMDT and is not as flexible in many ways, but can be
just as accurate and a lot easier to build and less to go wrong and
a whole lot cheaper.
3) It is basically an analog device and does not have digital
accuracy. But for small freq differences, it is more than accurate
enough to provide great results.
4) For those luckily enough to already have a TSC5120A or better,
you don't need one, That is unless you want to verify its
performance at short Tau.
5) And maybe the biggest disadvantage is that many of the leading
Freq nuts on this site don't like it and seem to believe that it
should not work.
But maybe that is just because they don't have one and have not even
tested one and seem unwilling to give it any consideration.
6) A search of past post on the subject will show that many do not
all agree that this is a good idea,
but they don't have a working unit like I do, and I don't have the
expensive high end equipment that they have.
ws
PS
Sorry for the long post.
This is the best I can do to respond to the off line request I
received to find a way to make this subject more useful,
constructive, cooperative and less confrontational, and do it with
less words and give more details.
I am not looking for a list of all the possible ways that it can be
done wrong,
Or guesses on why it should not work as good as it does.
I'll leave that for others to discuss.
But if what they say does not agree with my experimental results,
you can bet I'll still comment on it Again.
*************
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