David Read your comments and have been traveling. So finally a chance to email.
I read the document also and walked away with what I shared. In your reading would you believe the following. Its an absolute phase and that when it switches to 0 there is 1 transition at the beginning of the second to 180 degrees staying that way to the next bit or flipping again to 0 degrees if its a 1 at the 1 sec tic??? Is there a way to sense from the document that there is a bias towards 0 lets say. I could not figure that out. Regards Paul. On 7/9/2012 1:53 AM, David I. Emery wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 09:02:53PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The gotcha is that they may change the sync word based on test data. They may also tweak other vague points in the spec based on the troubles they run into in their tests or with their silicon. I finally read the wwvb.pdf paper (yes, do so before opening mouth)... I think I read the "Binary Phase Shift Keying Modulation" paragraph on page 10 to indicate they are using ABSOLUTE, not differential BPSK. They refer to the "baseband waveforms s0(t) and s1(t)". To me this is the absolute I vector... and this clearly says that a 0 is always upward (or by convention in phase), and a one is always downward (180 out)... They clearly say the phase shift is 180 degrees... I would think this clearly could be phrased better... It appears the data format they propose is quite well defined in the paper, though they clearly indicate that a proposed extension is changing the barker code sync word for frames every so often so as to indicate a different frame type that might contain highly entropic (eg volatile and unpredictable) information of undefined character including a possible mechanism for sending arbitrary and completely apriori unpredictable bitstreams, though doubtless constrained by the hamming codes used for FEC/error detection and the barker code sync word. On a quick read it appears the complete 60 second time frame format is defined unambiguously. There are somewhat unpredictable DST bits and leap second bits in there... but in practice those change VERY infrequently from 60 second frame to frame or even from week to week or year to year. (Yes Congress likes to muck with DST every decade or so...). I am still reading more carefully, but I think this means that the entire phase and amplitude sequence of the signal is defined for the current initial version if you know the time of day and date and the current leap second and DST settings (which change VERY infrequently). And I *THINK* I understand this means the absolute phase sequence relative to the 60 KHz going into the modulator at the transmitter.... Thus the initial signal phase modulation could be removed by some comparatively simple itty bitty microp software driving a balanced modulator BUT future signal extensions might not have that property. As for acquiring bit sync with the signal, both the amplitude and phase information should allow a micro to do this easily and relatively quickly if the I vector were provided to the micro somehow. This would presumably be possible by either sampling the 60 KHz directly with an A/D (at 240 Ksample/sec) or by using an external balanced mixer driven by local synthesized 60 KHz. Even just an envelope detector would work with strong signals because of the AM component, and this might be enough to acquire adequate bit sync for some purposes. Software PLLs at 1 second rate are duck soup for even a SLOW micro... and frequency errors are tiny so tracking can be tight. And acquisition for these is also very fast given reasonable SNR. Only takes forever if SNR is so low it takes that many seconds correlation to see a reliable tick. I admit as I think about this that if one synthesized the clock for a itty bitty simple micro from say a local DUT 10 MHz whose phase relative to WWVB one is monitoring one could do much of the entire job by using programmable timers on the micro and its internal A/D. This includes phase error versus WWVB output and of course TOD output. One would almost certainly want to either use external balanced mixers (FET switches ?) and produce an analog I and Q (low pass filtered) for processing by a really slow micro or use a fast enough one to take a stream of actual real 60 KHz input samples at 240 KHz and compute filtered I and Q) (and LP filter/decimate it) (yes, with accurate A/D clocking from suitable microp output pin interval timers you might well be able to subsample by a lot and not actually ever deal with even any close to a 240 KHz sample stream with the micro). This would of course allow computation of the vector positions of the WWVB signal modulation in I and Q space relative to the 10 MHz clock from the DUT. And from that one should be able to compute the various moments of 10 MHz DUT clock drift and do a decent job of compensating for it (better and better as the DUT clock gets more stable/predictable) and ride out fairly long fades and outages without losing a pretty good idea of the expected WWVB phase. Presumably most standards whose phase one is tracking with such setups are very stable, thus the holdover should be considerable if one uses a good error and drift estimate to adjust ones local idea of WWVB phase relative to local clock derived from the standard to compensate. And guess what, determining a local error and drift estimate is precisely what such a system is doing... And yes one could also drive a balanced modulator with the micro to generate a de-psked signal for legacy receivers in the museum, but in fact the micro would already know all that those things typically provided by legacy equipment (phase of local DUT standard versus WWVB and time of day and possibly SNR and or signal strength). It has occurred to me that it might be necessary to either squelch (eg turn off) the de-psked output to the legacy receivers on signal fades or perhaps BPSK modulate it with a several times the 1 second bit rate pseudo random bit stream to ensure that the legacy receivers never saw anything they thought was good lock until the time of day lock allowed determination of absolute WWVB signal phase reliably (and the new code with FEC seems to make this VERY reliable). Enough drunken ramblings late at night... Bob On Jul 8, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 07/09/2012 12:46 AM, paul wrote: Peter indeed there could be But it should not need to be decoded to undo the psk. Plus documentation lacks some of the details I think to actually do it. But that would be a significant project since the formats not been settled completely yet. I have looked at the PTTI 2011 paper (wwvb.pdf) and much of a format is being shown. Has anyone established the 14 bit sync-word and verified the format? It seems that aligning up with the normal AM broadcast should be possible. Can someone record it as it has been reduced to say 2 kHz and analyze the produced audio file? Recoding with 48 kHz sampling rate should allow almost trivial 2 kHz I-Q demodulation to illustrate phase swaps. Cheers, Magnus _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.