From: time-nuts-requ...@febo.com<time-nuts-requ...@febo.com>
Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue 154
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Received: Friday, December 21, 2012, 10:23 AM
Send time-nuts mailing list
submissions to
time-nuts@febo.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
to
time-nuts-requ...@febo.com
You can reach the person managing the list at
time-nuts-ow...@febo.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific
than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue
152 (Said Jackson)
2. Re: Brooks Shera (Chris Albertson)
3. Re: Z3805A cooling requirements?
(Volker Esper)
4. Re: A Day in the Life of Five PPS
Sources.. (Tom Miller)
5. Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue
152 (Volker Esper)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:53:51 -0800
From: Said Jackson<saidj...@aol.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Cc: "time-nuts@febo.com"
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue
152
Message-ID:<6e6305fd-df54-44d5-9ceb-5d4aeb5ae...@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Mark,
Your plot still shows excursions of +/-1E-010, about 100x
higher base noise than the Z3801A/Z3805A are capable of
achieving. Wonder where that noise is coming from? This
noise is probably much higher than the thermal effects.
The original post was the question "does my Z380xA have
reduced stability if I add a fan" or similar, I think the
answer is shown to be "yes".
Volker, I wonder if you also see fan-induced spurs in the
phase noise from 1Hz to 100Hz. I would not be surprised if
the fan vibration adds significant spurs to the 10811A
crystal.
Bye,
Said
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 21, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Mark Spencer<mspencer12...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
This plot should show the frequency change more
clearly. (Same data just presented
differently.)
It seems to me that the noise goes may be going down a
bit for a minute or so just after the fan is turned on but I
don't believe these plots provide conclusive evidence of
this.
Regards
Mark Spencer
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:27:29 -0800
From: Said Jackson<saidj...@aol.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3805A cooling
requirements?
Message-ID:<83ce0384-2996-4155-b51b-9d79910b2...@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Great plots guys!
Looking at these results I think my original claim
still
holds: ADEV goes up when a fan is involved versus
no fan,
even on a double oven 10811..
Clearly visible on the 10811, maybe not so much on
the MV89
but that unit seems to have frequency moves into
the xE-010
region on Marks plot so maybe the effect is just a
bit
hidden?
Bye,
Said
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 21, 2012, at 5:44 AM, Volker Esper<ail...@t-online.de>
wrote:
...and the picture of the experiment...
The picture enclosed can give you a first
impression. What we see is
the difference time between the GPS signal
and the
OCXO (blue)
("PPS-TI"), which is an HP 10811. In red we
can see
the EFC. The total
span is 24 h.
Before I applied the fan, the noise was at
a
maximum of about +/- 20 ns.
Some hours after starting the fan the noise
is much
greater. That should
have a significant impact on the ADEV.
I don't put the ADEV curves here, I make up
for it
when the EFC
compensation is completely out of the
scope, that
will be in about 12
hours. I don't have the ADEV at 1 s, but
the ADEV
at 10 s has been
almost constant. The ADEV at about 1000 s
has a
nasty bump now.
IMHO that fits to the physical facts: the
airflow
will surely not affect
the 10 s ADEV since the OCXO tries its best
to
isolate the oscillator
from short time temperature influences.
However,
the turbulent air flow
that I applied will influence the longer
time
ADEV.
Have a nice solstice
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 12:44, schrieb Volker Esper:
Yes, I made such a setup, it's now
running 22
hours. I'll post the
results in two hours or so (if nothing
evil
happens to the earth,
meanwhile).
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 03:35, schrieb saidj...@aol.com:
Wish I had more time to play with
this
setup.
How about fellow time nuts spend
some time
and present similar test
data on
their OCXO's to compare?
I was interested in the 1s to 100s
ADEV,
and my runs were from 8
minutes to
20 minutes, certainly enough time
to
capture data for 1s to 100s ADEV
measurements..
bye,
Said
In a message dated 12/20/2012
14:17:59
Pacific Standard Time,
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
writes:
On 12/20/2012 01:34 PM, Bob Camp
wrote:
Hi
Temperature transients are not
a good
thing for an OCXO. If you
deliberately use the fan to create
a
transient, then yes the OCXO will
not be
happy. The question it - what
happens after
the transient has settled
out? The
plot you have still looks a lot
like a step
function.
I agree. Temperature steps stresses
the
OCXO oven loop and easily
creates a gradient over the
crystal. As the
oven loop tracks in, the
frequency returns to around normal.
The
trouble with forced air over a
crystal is that the metal shield
couples
very well and acts like a heat
sink. A think plastic cover over it
and
forced convection doesn't have
the same effect. There is even
being used
by at least one vendor. Works
very well for the extra cents of
manufacturing cost.
The HP10811 is recommended to be
put in a
airflow-quiet corner of the
world. Look at it's mounting in
the
HP5370A/B for instance.
Cheers,
Magnus
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
<DSCF1758_bb.jpg>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue 152
*******************************************
<MV89A Fan turned on at 460 seconds v2.png>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:11:46 -0800
From: Chris Albertson<albertson.ch...@gmail.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Brooks Shera
Message-ID:
<cabbxvht1zj260xqpwtzjas_amqasgwoqveyvtbou2mhpaxp...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I just had this same problem, a computer owned by some one
who had
passed away. One dose not even need to know or recover
the password.
Simply remove the hard drive and place it on another
computer and you
will have access to all the files, copy over what is needed,
re-format
the drive, then put it back in the old PC and give the PC to
the
Goodwill store.
If the user encrypted the disk, you are out of luck with out
the key
but you only typicaly see encryption with notebook computers
used for
business.
I've seen this kind of dementia where the person needs full
time care.
By the time it goes that far the person does not know where
they are
or who anyone is. Many times they are upset and angry
all the time
because they can't figure out what's happening but other
times they
simply stair into space.
I think whatthis says is that if you've worked hard to make
a design
available to others and you don't intend to sell it
commercially,
PUBLISH the details, the design files and the source
code. Yes I
kknow it is never "good enough" for others to see. But
in reality it
is likely better than what 99.9% of others can do.
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 6:15 AM, paul swed<paulsw...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Bert
A thought has crossed my mind here.
His wife can not access his computer.
If its windows XP or earlier the password is
recoverable. I use a boot cd
that exposes all. Its been helpful.
Is there a way to reach out and offer help aside from
snail mail?
Would she be open to that help?
Regards
Paul
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:03 PM,<ewkeh...@aol.com>
wrote:
Some how time nuts combined two lines it is
Karen Stoll 46 Crazy Rabbit
Rd Santa Fee,
NM 87508
In a message dated 12/19/2012 3:55:33 P.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
ewkeh...@aol.com
writes:
Brooks Shera has been a major contributor with his
GPSDO. Before Tbolts
where affordable his QST article for the first time
opened the door for
many
amateurs to precision frequency at an
affordable price. Over the years I
build many units. For a year I have tried to
buy his latest version 4.02.
I
did not get a response, so last week I wrote
a hardcopy letter.
Yesterday I got an answer from his wife Karen
Stoll. She is not able to
access his emails.
Brooks is in a Memory Care Unit in a
local senior residence, suffering
from dementia.
I think it is appropriate that those of us
that appreciate his
contribution take the time to write a
personal note to his wife, I am
sure it will
help her in these difficult times and maybe
seeing the letters will help
him
to.
Bert Kehren
Karen Stoll46 Crazy Rabbit Rd.
Santa Fe, NM 87508
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 19:16:54 +0100
From: Volker Esper<ail...@t-online.de>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3805A cooling requirements?
Message-ID:<50d4a796.3070...@t-online.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
...and we do not know how much air flow and how turbulent
each of us
applied. We can only give an _idea_ of what happens and in
which order
of magnitude it could be.
When Stu started the thread (elderly time nuts can surely
recall) his
question was about cooling a Z38xx unit. I recommended
building a wind
shield between the oven and the power supply bricks and cool
the bricks
with a fan. When my current test is completed, I'll try
that, too.
The power supply most often seems to be the weak spot, so
some
additional cooling wouldn't be wrong (apart from acoustic
noise).
Yes, I bear in mind the warnings about a non ventilated
seperate oven
chamber and the hints about maximum temperature vs oven
temperature. So
I measured the temperature in the closed original aluminium
case (which
however has some ventilation slots). It was about
45?C=113?F, at a room
temeprature of 21?C=70?F. With an oven temp of about
80?C=176?F I don't
expect problems, even if the oven chamber temp will increase
some degrees.
Till then...
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 18:27, schrieb Said Jackson:
Great plots guys!
Looking at these results I think my original claim
still holds: ADEV goes up when a fan is involved versus no
fan, even on a double oven 10811..
Clearly visible on the 10811, maybe not so much on the
MV89 but that unit seems to have frequency moves into the
xE-010 region on Marks plot so maybe the effect is just a
bit hidden?
Bye,
Said
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 21, 2012, at 5:44 AM, Volker Esper<ail...@t-online.de>
wrote:
...and the picture of the experiment...
The picture enclosed can give you a first
impression. What we see is
the difference time between the GPS signal and
the OCXO (blue)
("PPS-TI"), which is an HP 10811. In red we can
see the EFC. The total
span is 24 h.
Before I applied the fan, the noise was at a
maximum of about +/- 20 ns.
Some hours after starting the fan the noise is
much greater. That should
have a significant impact on the ADEV.
I don't put the ADEV curves here, I make up for
it when the EFC
compensation is completely out of the scope,
that will be in about 12
hours. I don't have the ADEV at 1 s, but the
ADEV at 10 s has been
almost constant. The ADEV at about 1000 s has a
nasty bump now.
IMHO that fits to the physical facts: the
airflow will surely not affect
the 10 s ADEV since the OCXO tries its best to
isolate the oscillator
from short time temperature influences.
However, the turbulent air flow
that I applied will influence the longer time
ADEV.
Have a nice solstice
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 12:44, schrieb Volker Esper:
Yes, I made such a setup, it's now running
22 hours. I'll post the
results in two hours or so (if nothing evil
happens to the earth,
meanwhile).
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 03:35, schrieb saidj...@aol.com:
Wish I had more time to play with this
setup.
How about fellow time nuts spend some
time and present similar test
data on
their OCXO's to compare?
I was interested in the 1s to 100s
ADEV, and my runs were from 8
minutes to
20 minutes, certainly enough time to
capture data for 1s to 100s ADEV
measurements..
bye,
Said
In a message dated 12/20/2012 14:17:59
Pacific Standard Time,
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
writes:
On 12/20/2012 01:34 PM, Bob Camp
wrote:
Hi
Temperature transients are not a
good thing for an OCXO. If you
deliberately use the fan to create a
transient, then yes the OCXO will
not be
happy. The question it - what happens
after the transient has settled
out? The
plot you have still looks a lot like a
step function.
I agree. Temperature steps stresses the
OCXO oven loop and easily
creates a gradient over the crystal. As
the oven loop tracks in, the
frequency returns to around normal. The
trouble with forced air over a
crystal is that the metal shield
couples very well and acts like a heat
sink. A think plastic cover over it and
forced convection doesn't have
the same effect. There is even being
used by at least one vendor. Works
very well for the extra cents of
manufacturing cost.
The HP10811 is recommended to be put in
a airflow-quiet corner of the
world. Look at it's mounting in the
HP5370A/B for instance.
Cheers,
Magnus
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
<DSCF1758_bb.jpg>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:22:36 -0500
From: "Tom Miller"<tmil...@skylinenet.net>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A Day in the Life of Five PPS
Sources..
Message-ID:
<69051F4C50D9494FBF1ACC7B2FBF4BB1@FamilyHP>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
How did he set up the video? What camera?
Sorry, I lost the original message.
Regards,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul swed"<paulsw...@gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A Day in the Life of Five PPS
Sources..
Chuck he said it was the PRS10 RB the 5th unadjusted
reference
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Chuck Harris<cfhar...@erols.com>
wrote:
Let's see, I understand what the traces are, but what
is driving
the trigger?
-Chuck Harris
brent evers wrote:
Any idea of what drove the larger drift between the
Tbolts and the
PRS10 at 1:26 through1:29?
Be interesting (to me at least) too see the same
post survey. Neat idea.
Brent
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 1:43 AM, David Martin
<drmar...@ivietechnologies.com**>
wrote:
The video permissions should be fixed so it is
no longer "private" ...
Sorry
--------------------
A Day in the Life of Five PPS Sources..
See http://youtu.be/kOG9ImT2lvY
This is video is a two minute replay of the PPS
behavior of two PRS-10s,
two TBolts, and the SSR-6t during it's initial
24 hour site survey.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 19:22:48 +0100
From: Volker Esper<ail...@t-online.de>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue
152
Message-ID:<50d4a8f8.1070...@t-online.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Vibration: interesting consideration. In my experiment the
fan is very
softly coupled to the case (since it is lying on some soft
cables),
furthermore the power supply is a different one - not the
one that
powers the Z3805. I've tried to avoid those effects. I send
some ADEV
plots in an hour.
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 18:53, schrieb Said Jackson:
Mark,
Your plot still shows excursions of +/-1E-010, about
100x higher base noise than the Z3801A/Z3805A are capable of
achieving. Wonder where that noise is coming from? This
noise is probably much higher than the thermal effects.
The original post was the question "does my Z380xA have
reduced stability if I add a fan" or similar, I think the
answer is shown to be "yes".
Volker, I wonder if you also see fan-induced spurs in
the phase noise from 1Hz to 100Hz. I would not be surprised
if the fan vibration adds significant spurs to the 10811A
crystal.
Bye,
Said
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 21, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Mark Spencer<mspencer12...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
This plot should show the frequency change more
clearly. (Same data just presented
differently.)
It seems to me that the noise goes may be going
down a bit for a minute or so just after the fan is turned
on but I don't believe these plots provide conclusive
evidence of this.
Regards
Mark Spencer
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:27:29 -0800
From: Said Jackson<saidj...@aol.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3805A cooling
requirements?
Message-ID:<83ce0384-2996-4155-b51b-9d79910b2...@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Great plots guys!
Looking at these results I think my original
claim still
holds: ADEV goes up when a fan is involved
versus no fan,
even on a double oven 10811..
Clearly visible on the 10811, maybe not so much
on the MV89
but that unit seems to have frequency moves
into the xE-010
region on Marks plot so maybe the effect is
just a bit
hidden?
Bye,
Said
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 21, 2012, at 5:44 AM, Volker Esper<ail...@t-online.de>
wrote:
...and the picture of the experiment...
The picture enclosed can give you a
first
impression. What we see is
the difference time between the GPS
signal and the
OCXO (blue)
("PPS-TI"), which is an HP 10811. In
red we can see
the EFC. The total
span is 24 h.
Before I applied the fan, the noise was
at a
maximum of about +/- 20 ns.
Some hours after starting the fan the
noise is much
greater. That should
have a significant impact on the ADEV.
I don't put the ADEV curves here, I
make up for it
when the EFC
compensation is completely out of the
scope, that
will be in about 12
hours. I don't have the ADEV at 1 s,
but the ADEV
at 10 s has been
almost constant. The ADEV at about 1000
s has a
nasty bump now.
IMHO that fits to the physical facts:
the airflow
will surely not affect
the 10 s ADEV since the OCXO tries its
best to
isolate the oscillator
from short time temperature influences.
However,
the turbulent air flow
that I applied will influence the
longer time
ADEV.
Have a nice solstice
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 12:44, schrieb Volker
Esper:
Yes, I made such a setup, it's now
running 22
hours. I'll post the
results in two hours or so (if
nothing evil
happens to the earth,
meanwhile).
Volker
Am 21.12.2012 03:35, schrieb saidj...@aol.com:
Wish I had more time to play
with this
setup.
How about fellow time nuts
spend some time
and present similar test
data on
their OCXO's to compare?
I was interested in the 1s to
100s ADEV,
and my runs were from 8
minutes to
20 minutes, certainly enough
time to
capture data for 1s to 100s ADEV
measurements..
bye,
Said
In a message dated 12/20/2012
14:17:59
Pacific Standard Time,
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
writes:
On 12/20/2012 01:34 PM, Bob
Camp wrote:
Hi
Temperature transients are
not a good
thing for an OCXO. If you
deliberately use the fan to
create a
transient, then yes the OCXO will
not be
happy. The question it - what
happens after
the transient has settled
out? The
plot you have still looks a lot
like a step
function.
I agree. Temperature steps
stresses the
OCXO oven loop and easily
creates a gradient over the
crystal. As the
oven loop tracks in, the
frequency returns to around
normal. The
trouble with forced air over a
crystal is that the metal
shield couples
very well and acts like a heat
sink. A think plastic cover
over it and
forced convection doesn't have
the same effect. There is even
being used
by at least one vendor. Works
very well for the extra cents
of
manufacturing cost.
The HP10811 is recommended to
be put in a
airflow-quiet corner of the
world. Look at it's mounting in
the
HP5370A/B for instance.
Cheers,
Magnus
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions
there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
<DSCF1758_bb.jpg>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue 152
*******************************************
<MV89A Fan turned on at 460 seconds v2.png>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue 154
*******************************************
