I see a glass tape on the inner oven with writing "40.0". Thats it. Assuming C its a long way off.The flask is fine the ovens are heating to 110F. Both of them. So somethings wrong. Interesting as I peel something like caulking off the outer board I see what looks like a opamp. But its a FE house number. The top of the can has NSC. The old national semiconductor label. Could be a LM709 class opamp.
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:12 PM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > Hi > > If you are reading something below 60C on a dewar flask outer oven …. it > is borken….. very broken. > > Bob > > > On Feb 12, 2021, at 7:25 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > The temps I am reading are with a K thermocouple so pretty accurate. I > had > > simply slid the thermocouple into the flask on the outer edge of the > > ovens.The assembly is out of the flask now and both inner and outer are > > heating. Will see what they do. Both seem to be heating at about the same > > rate. So the great news is the oven windings are not bad. I do see a very > > significant voltage difference on two leads that I might guess matter. > But > > still decoding and reverse engineering everything. > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 5:20 PM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > > > >> Hi > >> > >> According to table 1-2 in: > >> > >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq-eimb.pdf < > >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq-eimb.pdf> > >> > >> The URQ-9 and URQ-10 both were rated for 0 to 50C. > >> > >> Per: > >> > >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq23-MIL-T-28816.pdf < > >> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq23-MIL-T-28816.pdf> > >> > >> The URQ-23 was rated for 0 to 50C > >> > >> I’d say it’s a pretty likely that the URQ-13 was rated to operate over > >> 0 to 50C. It went into the same locations and did the same thing as the > >> other devices. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> > >>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 1:07 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Well there is no doubt someone has been deep into this unit. Hint > missing > >>> screws internally. > >>> But appears both heater windings are ok. > >>> So inner and outer oven has a new meaning. I typically understood this > to > >>> be one oven in another oven. Think the HP CS units of old. The same in > >>> other places HP3801. > >>> But in the URQ13 it means there is a long tube. The Dewar flask. The > >> inner > >>> is deep into the flask and the outer is close to the opening. Two > >>> completely separate heaters. Under the outer heater I will guess is the > >>> actual oscillator for the 5 MHz. Further out from the outer heater are > >> the > >>> offset variable caps thermistor for the outer oven a pot and IC. > >>> Several screws hold this outer heater on and considering the risk of > >> taking > >>> out the remainders to look and draw a schematic. > >>> Regards > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:28 AM paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Yes Bob they could get hot. But the radio rooms I have been in circa > >> 1970s > >>>> were all air conditioned from destroyers to aircraft carriers. Shirt > >>>> sleeve. The best place to actually be when we were down by the equator > >> was > >>>> the radio room, ET shop, CIC and radar and just maybe the Captain's > >>>> stateroom. But if you were actually there you might still be sweating. > >>>> Chuckle. > >>>> This conversation has given me some good insights. Later today I will > >>>> disable the outer oven. Just curious to see what possible temps might > >> show > >>>> up. Is the inner oven simply reading outer oven leakage. Is there a > >> lead I > >>>> can measure the current of the inner oven.... > >>>> Thanks > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:18 AM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi > >>>>> > >>>>> If it’s 105F “outdoors” that’s 40C. Military gear back in the days of > >> the > >>>>> URQ10 > >>>>> did not live in air conditioned enclosures. It did get deployed to > >> places > >>>>> with > >>>>> temperatures at or above that level. > >>>>> > >>>>> If it’s 40C outdoors, by the time you get to a pile of electronics > gear > >>>>> *indoors*, > >>>>> a >10C rise is pretty likely. That drives a very common 50C “upper > end” > >>>>> temperature > >>>>> on ground gear in relatively benign installations. > >>>>> > >>>>> This does not just apply to military gear. If you look through test > >>>>> equipment > >>>>> catalogs, a lot of test gear also has the same sort of 50 to 60C > upper > >>>>> end spec. > >>>>> The 5065A has a spec of 0 to 50C. The 5061A has the same spec. Both > >>>>> targeted > >>>>> pretty “normal” environments …. ( = they never get below freezing …) > >> and > >>>>> date > >>>>> to the “era” of the URQ10. > >>>>> > >>>>> In this era of HVAC everywhere, the 5071A has a temp range of 0 to > 55C. > >>>>> If > >>>>> anything, this would suggest that things still can get pretty hot. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 10:29 AM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bob > >>>>>> OK there is the math. and that all starts to line up. > >>>>>> So most likely for other URQ units there will be an ambient max in > the > >>>>>> spec's. At least on the URQ10 in real life even in the hot tropics > the > >>>>>> radio room was shirt sleeve temps. > >>>>>> But the question asked was 110 F correct as measured on the outside > of > >>>>> the > >>>>>> outer oven against the dewar flask correct. It isn't. The darn thing > >> is > >>>>>> reasonably stable though. > >>>>>> Since the front panel test switch is not labeled I speculate that > the > >>>>>> position for the outer oven is in the normal range. The next switch > >>>>>> position most likely is inner and is not in the correct position. It > >>>>> slowly > >>>>>> moves to the high side. > >>>>>> No real details on anything and a total guess. > >>>>>> Really appreciate the thoughts. > >>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> Paul > >>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:18 AM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Indeed the outer oven (as a minimum) needs to be 5 to 10 C above > >>>>>>> the maximum ambient. If it’s not it goes out of regulation (runs > >> away) > >>>>>>> and you loose any benefit from it. ( = it now works against you ). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The inner oven as a minimum needs to be 5 to 10 C above the outer > >>>>>>> oven. Again if it is lower, you can / will get into the same > runaway > >>>>>>> issue. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Those offsets are dependent on the way things are insulated. If you > >> are > >>>>>>> using a dewar flask, 5C is probably not going to work for you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Your inner oven *also* is impacted by the turn temperature on the > >>>>> crystal > >>>>>>> being used. This *might* have a 20C range. That would put the > maximum > >>>>>>> inner oven temperature at 10 + 10 + 20 = 40C above the maximum > >> ambient. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Needless to say, if the max ambient is 85C, this will get the inner > >>>>> oven > >>>>>>> components up pretty hot. That’s not a real good idea. Derating the > >>>>> heater > >>>>>>> is pretty easy, derating *everything* in there is much more > complex. > >>>>> You > >>>>>>> do not often see 85C upper end double ovens …. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> One *could* also ask: “is all this worth it?”. List members *have* > >>>>> written > >>>>>>> papers addressing that point :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 10:05 PM, Paul Alfille < > paul.alfi...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Shouldn't the outer oven be cooler than the inner oven except > during > >>>>>>>> warmup? I would think the inner electronics would be generating > >> heat. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Paul Alfille K1PHA > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 9:30 PM paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 50C is what I have sort of seen over the years. Just wondered > could > >>>>>>> there > >>>>>>>>> have been a lower temp version. That made no sense. But then this > >>>>> beast > >>>>>>> has > >>>>>>>>> never made a lot of sense. The $20 mystery from Frequency > >>>>> Electronics. > >>>>>>>>> Thanks Bob > >>>>>>>>> Paul > >>>>>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 8:08 PM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Even for an outer oven, anything below 60C / 140F would be low > >>>>> enough > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> run into significant problems. On a mil device, an upper end > >>>>>>> temperature > >>>>>>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>>> the equipment likely would be over 70C. The outer oven would > need > >>>>> to be > >>>>>>>>>> 5 to 10C above that. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:55 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> OK I have had several responses and 110F is low as I expected. > >>>>>>>>>>> Wonder if I am being faked out? Perhaps by an inner oven and I > am > >>>>> only > >>>>>>>>>>> reading the outside of the outer oven. The Older URQ10 and > newer > >>>>> URQ23 > >>>>>>>>> do > >>>>>>>>>>> have 2 ovens. The meter switch for test is only labeled 1-9. no > >>>>> other > >>>>>>>>>> clues > >>>>>>>>>>> to the function. I noticed 2 positions change with warm up. > Sort > >> of > >>>>>>>>>>> supports the 2 oven theory. > >>>>>>>>>>> Really do not want to take what might be the outer oven off to > >> put > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> probe in. > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone. > >>>>>>>>>>> Paul > >>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:32 PM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 110 F makes very little sense unless you are in a very cold > >>>>> climate. > >>>>>>>>>>>> For military gear (or any gear for that matter) 43C on the > oven > >>>>> just > >>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t work. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 110 C would make sense in a very high temperature environment. > >>>>>>>>>>>> (think of 85C upper end ….). > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 2:18 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello to the group. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had a AN/URQ-13 or FE-15a oven oscillator for years. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Its never worked correctly and in reality some early alpha > >> build. > >>>>>>>>>> (Funny > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that its labeled 15a) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking online there is no documentation that I have been > able > >> to > >>>>>>>>> find > >>>>>>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the years. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> However in another discussion on a AN/URQ-23 that does have a > >>>>> manual > >>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> schematics I realized my guesses on power could be totally > >> wrong. > >>>>>>>>> Using > >>>>>>>>>>>>> voltages like the URQ23 the URQ13 actually behaves fairly > >> well. I > >>>>>>> was > >>>>>>>>>>>> lucky > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that I didn't destroy something with my original guess. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> That said what I find odd is the internal crystal oven runs > at > >>>>>>>>> exactly > >>>>>>>>>>>> 110 > >>>>>>>>>>>>> degrees. Its repeatably warms to that level with a range of > >>>>> supply > >>>>>>>>> from > >>>>>>>>>>>> +/- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 12-15V. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Does 110 degrees F make any sense at all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul > >>>>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.