As Chris and others have stated, I lean toward the perspective that explanations for behaviors as simply justifications for behaviors after the fact instead of representing a consciously applied moral stance before the behavior occurred. This general topic of moral reasoning and its relationship to moral/immoral behaviors becomes particularly interesting relative to research conducted in the last 10 years showing that what we have normally assumed were consciously deliberated goals are more often under the control of our unconscious mind. This is stated concisely in an article published in Science, July 2010 titled: UNCONSCIOUS WILL: HOW THE PURSUIT OF GOALS OPERATES OUTSIDE OF CONSCIOUS AWARENESS.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/329/5987/47.short We all know how each of believes (hopes!) we would behave in various social psychology experiments, especially ones demonstrating bystander apathy, the obedience and prison experiments, etc. But, of course, without previous exposure to such studies, do we really know? I appreciate Michael's efforts if for no reason but to encourage us all to discuss this very difficult and bewildering behavior of our own citizens. And observing the topic of torture--should we or should we not--becoming a political football is appalling. Zimbardo's recent efforts in his heroic imagination project as discussed in Science as well as described by Zimbardo on his website as a potentially crucial effort to enable us all to "resist negative social influences . . . as well as learning how "to implement positive change in interpersonal relationships and group interactions." http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6029/530.short http://heroicimagination.org/ Just as we need to practice a new dance or a new language, we all will need to practice using our conscious mind to not conform to the negative behaviors of others that results from our unconscious mimicry of others as well as our ongoing need to be an accepted and respected member of our groups. Hope that makes some sense. Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu > Yes, your "man on the street" perspective is quite in line with Kohlberg's > testing of an individual judging a person's actions in a hypothetical > scenario (such as Heinz stealing a drug to save a life). I think the most > interesting applications of the work, though, are to how we explain our > own behavior, not the behavior of others. > > As others have said, there are many things that would go into making such > a decision and performing such a behavior. Kohlberg's theory is really > about how we explain it to ourselves. This rationale or justification may > or may not have much to do with the actual motivating factors. As a > person's cognitive capacities develop, they begin to reason differently > about their ethical and moral choices. Some would see this as a > development from a lower to a higher morality and maybe even a greater > likelihood of performing moral actions. What your chart shows is that a > person could make either choice at each level. It isn't really about the > behavior chosen but about the way we explain it. This isn't to say that > there aren't decisions that are more or less moral or that all of these > arguments are equally valid, just that a person's cognitive level will > determine the particular justification they give. By the way, this kind of > chart is quite common in discussions of Kohlberg's work, including the > Heinz dilemma. You can argue both ways for Heinz' actions at each level. > > It is a long-standing critique of Kohlberg's model to say that the person > at the highest level of moral reasoning, who will follow their own > conscience regardless of the law or any social contract, is hard to > distinguish, by definition alone, from a sociopath. Kohlberg seems to > believe that all right-thinking people will eventually arrive at the > Universal Ethical Principle but there are certainly those who follow their > conscience, break the law and are not lauded for it. > > Rick > > Dr. Rick Froman > Professor of Psychology > Box 3519 > x7295 > rfro...@jbu.edu > http://bit.ly/DrFroman > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Britt [mailto:mich...@thepsychfiles.com] > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 9:54 AM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: Re: [tips] CIA Torture and Kohlberg's Stages > > Fascinating Rick. Thanks for taking the time to make these suggestions. > The justifications you've written below come from the perspective of > someone inside the CIA doing the actual torture, which is a different but > equally interesting angle than I was thinking. I was thinking of just the > "person on the street" and what they might think about whether the torture > was right or wrong. How would this person justify the CIA's use of > torture? > > Also, can you clarify what you mean by, "..the choice made to torture or > not is not determined by Kohlberg's levels. The level describes the > justification that will be made for the choice of torturing or not." > > > Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > http://www.ThePsychFiles.com > Twitter: @mbritt > >> On Dec 19, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Rick Froman <rfro...@jbu.edu> wrote: >> >> You are definitely on the right track by demonstrating that the choice >> made to torture or not is not determined by Kohlberg's levels. The level >> describes the justification that will be made for the choice of >> torturing or not. I think your emphasis on what other countries think of >> us will be, at most, a minor consideration in these personal choices. >> More likely might be what your immediate superior or your colleagues >> think of you (especially at a pre-conventional level). The following are >> not perfect and are certainly not the only possible responses at each >> level but I think they get at what the justification would be like at >> each level. >> >> Instead of referencing the constitution on the top right (Level 1-1 >> Yes), I would say "I will be punished by my superiors if we don't get >> results". >> >> Level 1-1 No would say, "If anyone finds out that I did this, I will get >> it trouble, so I will not torture this person." >> >> >> Level 1-2 Yes would be "if I can torture this person to receive >> actionable intelligence, I will be a hero and be rewarded by my >> superiors." >> >> Level 1-2 No would be "if I don't torture this person, I will be >> rewarded for it". >> >> >> Level 2-1 Yes would be justified in the context of interpersonal >> relationships such as "my colleagues and superiors will think well of me >> if I go along with this" and "this will keep more of my fellow citizens >> and soldiers from dying" >> >> Level 2-1 No would have to be in the context of interpersonal >> relationships such as "what might my friends and family think of me if >> they knew I was doing this?" >> >> >> Level 2-2 Yes "We are using these techniques to maintain the social >> order and bring justice to the victims of terrorism and these techniques >> have been approved by legal authorities." >> >> Level 2-2 No (I think the current example given here goes down in the >> next level) "We shouldn't torture because it is unlawful (hasn't been >> fully adjudicated in the US and may violate international law) and will >> lead to a breakdown of law and order where we will sink to the level of >> the terrorists." >> >> >> Level 3-1 Yes "the relevant social contract is with my fellow citizens >> who have been attacked by terrorists and we are doing this to bring the >> terrorists to justice (not necessarily in the justice system)." >> >> Level 3-1 "No the social contract across cultures and national >> boundaries is that torture is forbidden." >> >> >> Level 3-2 "Yes I am at peace with the fact that torture is a necessary >> evil to prevent greater evils from occurring and I would do this whether >> it was against the law or not." >> >> Level 3-2 No "Torture is wrong and I would not torture whether it is >> against the law or not." >> >> >> Rick >> >> >> Dr. Rick Froman >> Professor of Psychology >> Box 3519 >> x7295 >> rfro...@jbu.edu >> http://bit.ly/DrFroman >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Britt [mailto:mich...@thepsychfiles.com] >> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 8:55 AM >> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) >> Subject: [tips] CIA Torture and Kohlberg's Stages >> >> I've been thinking about how people's various reactions to the CIA >> torture - both pro and con - might be applied to Kohlberg's levels of >> moral development. It might make for a good class discussion next >> semester if there's a way to make this work. I put together a map of >> the stages and some rationales that I've heard for the CIA torture, but >> the map is incomplete (a few of the nodes don't have >> opinions/rationalizations because I couldn't think of one). Also, I'm >> wondering whether trying to fit these two things together really works, >> but I thought it was worth a try. >> >> Happy to get input on this map: >> >> http://bitly.com/TortureAndKohlberg >> >> Michael >> >> >> Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. >> mich...@thepsychfiles.com >> http://www.ThePsychFiles.com >> Twitter: @mbritt >> >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: rfro...@jbu.edu. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5f >> 8a&n=T&l=tips&o=41175 or send a blank email to >> leave-41175-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5f8a@fsulist.frostburg.e >> du >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: >> michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f >> 69&n=T&l=tips&o=41180 or send a blank email to >> leave-41180-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69@fsulist.frostburg.e >> du > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: rfro...@jbu.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5f8a&n=T&l=tips&o=41181 > or send a blank email to > leave-41181-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: jwarm...@oakton.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752d0d&n=T&l=tips&o=41184 > or send a blank email to > leave-41184-49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@mail-archive.com. 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