Hi Does anyone expect reason or consistency from religious organizations?
Jim Sent from my iPhone On Dec 19, 2015, at 2:15 PM, "Paul Brandon" <pkbra...@hickorytech.net<mailto:pkbra...@hickorytech.net>> wrote: More to the point, would they have hired her if she had expressed support for one of those groups at a job interview? On Dec 19, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Christopher Green <chri...@yorku.ca<mailto:chri...@yorku.ca>> wrote: Paul, There are, of course, a number of Christian sects that reject the trinity too. Unitarianism is the obvious one. The Mormons too, I think. Perhaps one other of the big American post-Protestant denominations of the Second Great Awakening? (Jehovah's Witness, Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, etc.). Would Wheaton have fired this professor if she had visibly expressed support for one of those groups when they were under widespread social attack? I can't say for sure, obviously, but I know where I would place my bets. Chris ....... Christopher D Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 43.773759, -79.503722 chri...@yorku.ca<mailto:chri...@yorku.ca> http://www.yorku.ca/christo On Dec 19, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Paul Brandon <pkbra...@hickorytech.net<mailto:pkbra...@hickorytech.net>> wrote: Mike— I assume that -you- have read Wheaton’s statement; I’m less sure about other readers. Certainly there is a theological argument for the statement that everyone worships the same god (I read a children’s book to that effect sixty+ years ago). However, the many fundamentalist sects of Christianity manage to make a big deal of minor theological differences. And while the three ‘Abrahamic’ religions share the Old Testament, they use different translations; sometimes significantly (I’m thinking of the Christian version of Isaiah used to predict the coming of Christ). And wandering off into theology, I sometimes thing that Islam is the only pure monotheism. Judaism states clearly that you shall worship no one but the Lord — the Torah is less clear about the existence of other gods. As for Christianity, 1 = 3 and the whole panoply of demigods (saints)….. On Dec 19, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Mike Palij <m...@nyu.edu<mailto:m...@nyu.edu>> wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:47:28 -0600, Paul Brandon wrote: If you read the Wheaton College statement of faith that you’ve linked to, Paul, of course I read the statement of faith -- do you think I post links to sites that I don't examine and understand? you would see that the god that Wheaton College worships is the Trinity (they are very explicit in their Statement of Faith), Perhaps you are unaware that Catholics hold the same belief, the most obvious proponent being Pope Francis, thus the significance of Prof. Larycia Hawkins mention of the Pope's statement "we worship the same God". Indeed, the concept of "Abrahamic Religious Tradition" is that Judaism, Christinaity, and Islam use the same sources (e.g., all three use the Jewish Torah or Old Testament as one of their foundational texts and last I checked that source's construct of God is that it a unitary entity -- are you saying that Christians of Wheaton reject the old Testament becase it doesn't subscibe to the pothytheistic construct of a Trinity existing as a Unity?) all three religious traditions make different interpretations of those texts and the only question, I think, that remains is whether the interpetations are tolerant and ecumenical (i.e., " we are all more similar than we are different") or intolerant and divise (i.e., "we KNOW THE TRUTH and if you don't believe as we do you are an apostate and heretic"; for a little more on this point, see: https://imspeakingtruth.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/apostasy-vs-heresy/ ). Of course, the move from the unitary monotheism of Judaism to the polytheistic unity of Christianity is something that both Judaism and Islam reject yet the concept of God (the Father) remains the same in all three. The problems of having a polytheistic monotheism is presented best in Clint Eastwood's movie "Million Dollar Baby" where he needles his parish preist with questions about whether there is one God or three. For those who haven't see this movie or forget the scene, here a clip on The YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCoRyXUnTTU I don't know how the folks at Wheaton interpret this concept -- remember that language is a slippery thing and what is expressed is not understood in the way that speaker intended -- but since they are a derivative religion from Catholicism (part of the Protestant range of religions that range from snaker handlers to Mormons and everything in between) I think both Prof. Hawkins and Pope Francis got it right: Abrahamic religions do worship the same God, they just interpret the construct differently. For more on this point, I suggest looking at the followig: Volf, Miroslav. Do we worship the same God?: Jews, Christians, and Muslims in dialogue. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2012. Especially the chapter by Peter Ochs "Do We Worship the Same God?", part of which is availabe on Google books; see: https://books.google.com/books?id=aX9NQ5JaANQC&pg=PA153&dq=Kammuna,+Ibn+%281971%29.+Examination+of+the+Three+Faiths.+Berkeley+and+Los+Angeles:+Moshe+Perlmann.+pp.+148%E2%80%9349.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjH5OmCg-jJAhVLLyYKHa0RBrMQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22do%20we%20worship%20the%20same%20God%3F%22&f=false Ultimately, it comes down to what one believes or WANTS TO BELIEVE. Religion is not an empirical enterprise subject to empirical verification and falsification -- the choice to be inclusive or exclusive is a human and social issue though, and may not be based on actualy religious doctrine but on ordinary human biases (e.g., anit-papistry). If Wheaton chooses to believe it is "SPECIAL" and the God it believes in is not anyone else's God, well, I guess they are entitled to that belief though it make it harder to defend against alternatives like relgiions based on science fiction stories and space aliens who can use the same argument. If Wheaton want to claim that the God of Islam is not the same God as the Jews or other Christians, they can do so. But is it also marks them as being divisive in contrast to inclusive -- which may be exactly what they want if they feel only they have the one true faith. Personally, I think they're anti-papists. ;-) a concept absent in Islam. I can see why a fundamentalist organization such as Wheaton would hold that Islam does not worship the same god as they do, and that by equating the god of Islam with the God of Wheaton, Dr. Hawkins was violating the terms of her contract. Since Jesus Christ never wrote down his beliefs or directions on how to interpret his teachings and the writing of the Gospels of the New Testament took place some 30-60 years after his death -- the selections of which writings would become "canonical" and make it into the New Testament and which would be banned (e.g., the Gospel of Judas), what God is in the Christian tradition is open to interpretation though "true believers" may feel that their interpetation is THE correct one. Bart Ehrman is good at making this point in his book "Misquoting Jesus"; see: http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Bart-D-Ehrman-ebook/dp/B000SEGJF8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450533001&sr=1-1&keywords=misquoting+jesus If the "God of Wheaton" doesn't like the Muslims or want to be indentified with them, I guess that is their choice. But after 12 years of Catholic school, 5 years of teaching at Yeshiva University, and having had Muslim students (from modern/cultural to devout), I've come to position that it's probably better to be inclusive than exclusive. But we really, really need to be careful about using religious beliefs as a shield to advocate bigotry and a weapon of oppression. Oh, and Happy Holidays! ;-) -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu<mailto:m...@nyu.edu> P.S. Note to Christians: if you follow the Gregorian calendar, Christmas is December 25. If you follow the Julian (old) calendar, it's January 7 unless you are an Orthodox Armenian Christian in which case Christmas is observed on January 6. I don't know when the "God of Wheaton" commands his followers to celebrate Christmas (remember that not all Christians have celebrated Christmas; the Puritans actually outlawed it in Massachusetts in their early days there -- if the New Testament is correct, Jesus was probably born at some other time like the spring but early on Christians didn't concentrate on Christmas, it became important after it was realized that the end times weren't coming as soon as people thought). As for myself, I'll celebrate the winter solstice and not because I'm pagan (I'm not) but because the days grow longer after the date. However, if you believe that God is part of all life, all nature, and all reality, then one could do much worse than celebrate the winter solstice. On Dec 16, 2015, at 10:08 PM, Mike Palij <m...@nyu.edu<mailto:m...@nyu.edu>> wrote: On Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:44:20 -0800, Paul Brandon wrote:> In this case, the college is religious; effectively a branch of a church, and the contract requires adherence to the church's religious principles. She signed her contract knowing this. I understand this but you're implying that the religious sect running the college really doesn't believe that there is only one God in the Abrahamic religious tradition. The "Statement of Faith" that Wheaton uses does not explicitly state this -- see: http://www.wheaton.edu/About-Wheaton/Statement-of-Faith-and-Educational-Purpose So, how does her comment violate this statement. Quoting from the NY Time article, |"I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, | like me, a Christian, are people of the book," she wrote, |in part. "And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship |the same God." Or was it her mention of Pope Francis that got her into trouble? Are the folks running the college anti-papist? See the Wikipedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Papist&redirect=no which will probably redirect to this entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Catholicism&redirect=no -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu<mailto:m...@nyu.edu> On Dec 16, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Mike Palij wrote: Can a tenured faculty member be fired for being a heretic? We'll see but for now see the following: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/17/us/wheaton-college-professor-larycia-hawkins-muslim-scarf.html?_r=0 No wonder Trump is so popular. Do evangelicals not consider Islam one of the Abrahamic religions? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato pkbra...@hickorytech.net<mailto:pkbra...@hickorytech.net> --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca<mailto:j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca>. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9&n=T&l=tips&o=47635 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-47635-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu<mailto:leave-47635-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@mail-archive.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=47636 or send a blank email to leave-47636-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
