In response to: Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for my raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around to get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work at it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did.
I have found that antenna analyzers can get screwed up on long antennas if there are nearby transmitters; AM stations or any other transmitter that can swamp out the input to the analyzer. I live 1/4 mile from a 1kw am station and I cannot use any brand of analyzer on the HF bands. I must use a SWR bridge and a transmitter. Jerry Kahn AC0RL -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of topband-requ...@contesting.com Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:00 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 190, Issue 9 Send Topband mailing list submissions to topband@contesting.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to topband-requ...@contesting.com You can reach the person managing the list at topband-ow...@contesting.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..." Today's Topics: 1. PreStew coming up soon (Tree) 2. trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square (terry burge) 3. Re: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square (Wayne Kline) 4. Re: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square (daraym...@iowatelecom.net) 5. Re: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square (Guy Olinger K2AV) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:30:28 -0700 From: Tree <t...@kkn.net> To: 160 <topband@contesting.com> Subject: Topband: PreStew coming up soon Message-ID: <cakf9hhakcu37mugxmqsvu-frdty7ntamdnudypzczdzmy8y...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This weekend is the last full weekend to get your antennas QRV for the PreStew coming up on October 20th at 1500Z. At the home station of the Boring Amateur Radio club - my antenna currently is not complete. I have a new 97 foot tower with a full sized Steppir Monster on top and have laid down the first two radials. Will be working hard this weekend getting the radial count up and figuring out the gamma match to load the tower. The tower and antenna is the same configuration I had running at my temporary QTH during the past three years. It required some top loading when used with the elements retracted - about 50 feet or wire. So I am guessing I can deal with the extra tower height by reducing the length of the loading wire at the top of the tower. The Hi-Z 4 square antenna has not been deployed yet either... so that will be on the list after getting the TX antenna setup. Beverages will have to wait until December since there is just too much to be done and not enough time. The complete results from the BigStew are in process. We have enlisted the help of Guy, K2AV, to figure out the plaque winners. We should have them posted shortly after the PreStew and then you can prepare yourself for the posts from W7EW organizing the sponsors for the plaques for the December event. Rules and other stuff at http://www.kkn.net/stew 73 Tree N6TR / K7RAT ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:11:37 -0700 (PDT) From: terry burge <k...@comcast.net> To: topband@contesting.com, terry burge <k...@comcast.net> Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square Message-ID: <1643722037.144373.1539295897...@connect.xfinity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello Guys and Gals, Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for my raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around to get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work at it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did. The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about 175-200' back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns. Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5, 3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close to the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting them Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16 RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm C: 52000 nF up and down R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07 RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms L: 2.2 nH R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high) L:|| same infinity And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this morning.... 3860 Khz resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1 R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1 c: infinity R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down C|| 8pF How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance down a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since by this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried raising and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much. I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an antenna because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles! After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the SE sloper. 3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 , 3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 , 3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see what I mean? Terry KI7M ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 23:03:49 +0000 From: Wayne Kline <w...@hotmail.com> To: terry burge <k...@comcast.net>, "topband@contesting.com" <topband@contesting.com> Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square Message-ID: <sn2pr20mb08776ef8351dcac56d785b478f...@sn2pr20mb0877.namprd20.prod.outlook. com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Terry, I assume you only installed ONE sloper and made your measurements ? With all 4 installed there is way to much mutual coupling to get a meaningful reading. If your readings were from only ONE antenna tuned with a length of 50 OHM cable at it?s feed point and trimmed to your desired freq. and that FREQ will rise about 80 to 120 KC when the 4 are installed . Wayne W3EA Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of terry burge <k...@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:11:37 PM To: topband@contesting.com; terry burge Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square Hello Guys and Gals, Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for my raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around to get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work at it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did. The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about 175-200' back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns. Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5, 3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close to the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting them Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16 RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm C: 52000 nF up and down R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07 RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms L: 2.2 nH R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high) L:|| same infinity And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this morning.... 3860 Khz resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1 R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1 c: infinity R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down C|| 8pF How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance down a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since by this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried raising and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much. I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an antenna because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles! After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the SE sloper. 3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 , 3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 , 3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see what I mean? Terry KI7M _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 19:14:35 -0500 From: <daraym...@iowatelecom.net> To: "Wayne Kline" <w...@hotmail.com>, "terry burge" <k...@comcast.net>, <topband@contesting.com> Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square Message-ID: <FCC82990D50C43EDBB6B33831F5728BA@DavidBrentPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Yes, install ONE sloper. . .measure and cut to resonance. Duplicate that measurement for the other three. 73. . .Dave, W0FLS -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Kline Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:03 PM To: terry burge ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square Terry, I assume you only installed ONE sloper and made your measurements ? With all 4 installed there is way to much mutual coupling to get a meaningful reading. If your readings were from only ONE antenna tuned with a length of 50 OHM cable at it?s feed point and trimmed to your desired freq. and that FREQ will rise about 80 to 120 KC when the 4 are installed . Wayne W3EA Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of terry burge <k...@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:11:37 PM To: topband@contesting.com; terry burge Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square Hello Guys and Gals, Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for my raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around to get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work at it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did. The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about 175-200' back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns. Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5, 3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close to the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting them Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16 RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm C: 52000 nF up and down R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07 RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms L: 2.2 nH R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high) L:|| same infinity And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this morning.... 3860 Khz resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1 R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1 c: infinity R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down C|| 8pF How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance down a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since by this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried raising and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much. I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an antenna because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles! After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the SE sloper. 3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 , 3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 , 3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see what I mean? Terry KI7M _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 23:29:17 -0400 From: Guy Olinger K2AV <k2av....@gmail.com> To: David Raymond <daraym...@iowatelecom.net> Cc: w...@hotmail.com, terry burge <k...@comcast.net>, TopBand List <topband@contesting.com> Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square Message-ID: <CANckpc0fcZF4tg4HcVSJ5RHNW7W6fS2=7qp2ktmucaw+px7...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Essential point that might be missed: each one of the elements, one at a time, must be tuned independently with the other three elements down. This is the initial tuning. If when everything hooked up characteristics are OK then you?re done. Finish initial tuning and it's *not* OK? To slide the ARRAY center freq up or down, there are several methods: 1) Redo the initial one at a time tuning with an opposite-to-the-error adjustment to the one at a time tuning target frequency. 2) make *small* identical wire length changes to all four elements at the same time. 3) If you're an engineer and have the equipment and design software, redesign the box to work with what you have. ? Just remember that the elements of a four square are very heavily coupled to each other, regardless that all are driven from the control box. The final result is a complex function of the driven current AND the effects of the heavy mutual coupling between elements. 73, and good luck, Guy K2AV On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 8:15 PM <daraym...@iowatelecom.net> wrote: > Yes, install ONE sloper. . .measure and cut to resonance. Duplicate that > measurement for the other three. 73. . .Dave, W0FLS > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne Kline > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:03 PM > To: terry burge ; topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square > > Terry, > > > > I assume you only installed ONE sloper and made your measurements ? > > > > With all 4 installed there is way to much mutual coupling to get a > meaningful reading. > > > > If your readings were from only ONE antenna tuned with a length of 50 OHM > cable at it?s feed point and trimmed to your desired freq. and that FREQ > will rise about 80 to 120 KC when the 4 are installed . > > > > Wayne W3EA > > > > Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for > Windows > 10 > > > > ________________________________ > From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of terry burge > <k...@comcast.net> > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:11:37 PM > To: topband@contesting.com; terry burge > Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square > > Hello Guys and Gals, > > > Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the > Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for > my > raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around > to > get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length > of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work > at > it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig > Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did. > > > The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to > rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the > Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about > 175-200' > back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs > from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple > ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns. > > > Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the > shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5, > 3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close > to > the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig > Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting > them > > > Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16 > > RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm > > R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm > > C: 52000 nF up and down > > > R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm > > > second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07 > > RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms > > R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms > > L: 2.2 nH > > R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high) > > L:|| same infinity > > > And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this > morning.... > > > 3860 Khz > > resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1 > > R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms > > R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1 > > c: infinity > > R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down > > C|| 8pF > > > How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance > down > a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where > the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since > by > this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles > length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried > raising > and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much. > I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an > antenna > because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles! > > > After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the > SE sloper. > > 3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 , > 3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 , > > > 3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see > what I mean? > > > Terry > > KI7M > > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Topband mailing list Topband@contesting.com http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband ------------------------------ End of Topband Digest, Vol 190, Issue 9 *************************************** _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband