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Thanks for the comm Paul - much to still mull over. One thing I am
certain of is that I am uncertain.
Martin
On 8 Aug 2012 09:10, Paul Tipon wrote:
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Hi Martin,
On Aug 7, 2012, at 3:11 AM, trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org wrote:
Hi Paul,
If ever you have a lucid dream and someone you are talking to says,
"When I end this dream you will disappear!" You could have an
argument as to who will disappear first. LOL
That's a really good one. I enjoyed the laugh. Yes, that would be a
great argument. Of course I always win my own arguments but it would
be fun. LOL
I didn't know LRH did out of body work. He was very disparaging about
Astral travel. The only semi-scientologist I know who does Astral
and remote viewing is Ingo Swan. The chief of the RV program at
Stanford was Hal Putthoff. He was a Scientologist. Ingo eventually
rejected Scientology. He hoped it would reveal more about psi. He
made his own discoveries.
That is how I see that Ron got a lot of his Whole Track data. I also
ran into a piece that he wrote talking about his 'guide' and his
postulates. If you will listen to RJ 67, Ron's tape about his OT III
research, you will hear him say, "not my particular incident". That's
why I also feel he had to go to the Canary Islands to contact ridges
from that incident in order to run it and get the data. It is also
why I say from my knowingness and others too have stated that he
didn't get it completely right or fully complete it. There is also a
lot of info about Ron and Alister Crowley, 'The' guru of the time
(before Dianetics) of mysticism.
Many are stuck in the old adage of "If a tree falls in the forest and
no one is there to see it - did it fall?"
Our reality is perception of data and we comm in terms of symbols or
metaphors.
To me, not only that but we don't read digital code, ones and zeros,
we integrate and get analog and then pile on symbols and/or metaphors
after that.
That we may not be in a position to receive data does not mean that
the data does not exist.
We and others interpret data received in terms of own metaphors and
or symbols based on experience.
We create and experience simultaneously. If one interprets all
experience as creation then the solipsists have a point. LOL.
Well, yes. If we are in a Matrix, a virtual reality and one could say
we all create all of our experiences. Then you could go around being
a fantastic solipsist given that you only operate off of experiences.
I agree that the universe is a probabilistic virtual reality.
Yes, when I came across that data and that theory in MBT, it explained
a lot to me that I had experienced and just like the one and two slot,
particle/wave experiment, I can see no other explanation. Not there
won't be but this theory/explanation is totally and fully sufficient.
We do have power of choice - but only within the bounds of the
rule-set and our perceptive abilities.
Don't forget the psi uncertainty. I have myself personally, many
times gone beyond what is considered the bounds of the rule-set. And
like Tom says, it can be stretched and I am not the only one to either
witness or exact a stretch of the rule-set. Now for God like
phenomena ... I can see the rule-set holding true. But more on that
later.
What we are currently experiencing in this rule set, we experience
using body perceptions, which give us a common reality. Folks with
different antenna attached to their sculls may perceive more - or
maybe less.
I'm still in the process of erecting my own personal, humdinger of an
antenna. OT drills, OT knowingness expansion and OT understanding.
You got any other OT stuff I may have missed?
This universe or system is set up to help us evolve. (My current belief)
Me too.
Hubbard's view that we are super beings who started existence before
time began seems to me a delusion of grandeur which gave his
followers a feeling of superiority. His whole OT thingamabob is based
on being able to violate the rule set.
Yes and I have always felt that was a great way to cave someone in.
You do all of the OT Levels and you're supposed to be OT ... I don't
see that it has been accomplished yet. Not even Ron got there or if
he did, it wasn't permanent or long lasting up to the end or even past
his 'this lifetime'.
Violating the rules of the physical universe can be done but because
the intent to do so stems from outside the universe (outside used
metaphorically) - no certain objective evidence can be obtained.
Now here's where I come in and say ... Yes it can if enough get
together and create an entirely new universe for just them to occupy
or that enough in this particular universe come to new agreements on
what the rule-set is. And of course all the ones that didn't agree
... we'll just call them solipsists. What the heck they'll never know
anything changed anyway. To them it'll just be the latest system
upgrade if they can even be aware of that.
See, now you got me going again. Because what I just said could in
fact be happening every other moment and it's just that you and I and
everyone else who is not delusional or 100% certified Thetans/spirits
are solipsists to the degree that we don't know that something all
encompassing, major and totally different just occurred. Who was that
guy who said ignorance is bliss. Did he know something that he hasn't
told us??????? Is he still over there somewhere in the wings LOL.
In Scientology, mental compromise is treason. There is no search for
truth, only the enforced acceptance of totalitarian dogmas and cliches.
I agree. But I also recognize that there was a lot of truth
discovered in the early pioneering days which is now fairly ignored
with the new Bridge and OT Levels. Not to mention the fact that
management has their own fish to fry. Never mind that you and I would
like a chance at frying fish. But then I guess that's what brought
the like of you and me here to this site.
Confusedly yours,
Martin
Paul/Level 5 in progress ... not only resolving my mind but now having
to resolve my solipsisms thanks to you. LOL Will I ever be able to
return to bliss?
On 07 August 2012 07:36, Paul Tipon wrote:
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On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:09 AM, trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org wrote:
On Aug 6, 2012, at 8:31 AM, trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org wrote:
On 06 August 2012 08:18, Paul Tipon wrote:
But then I still question if there really is a 'you' out there or is
all of this just me and my magnificent imagination)
Yes and it surprises me that there are not more of us solipsists. lol
Oh yeah. You're one of those guys eh. ;-) Yes, I can see that point
but also think there are enough as it is. Now the funny thing is that
if you have any kind of an inkling that a Matrix, a virtual
environment actually exists ... There is a whole lot of data that
there is. Did you know that LRH was into this with his out of body
work? I know for myself that solipsis cannot be totally denied. It
explains too much both physically and scientifically. You know, all
of that mystic stuff that not even Ron talked about but in fact was
heavily into. There are mysteries and anomalies in science and of the
physical universe that only lend themselves to a solipsis
configuration to explain how 'that' can be.
Yes, I can see where solipsism is in the here and now. It's just that
I'm to smart, knowing and can see across the heavens and Earth,
backward, forward and present. So I'm somewhere between all knowing
and not knowing at all. What an interesting spot, huh. Proof there
is with a skepticism and that it just may not be that way but it sure
can explain a lot when nothing else can.
For me, I just know that it is true. I then look around and sure
nuff, there they are but know that I am not one of them but creepy,
that we all may be inhabiting a solipsis. It's just that people like
me (ahem!) can see above and beyond the solipsis while still playing
the solipsis game. In solipsis ragtime no less.
To me the greatest evidence against solipsism is that there are so
many differing points of view each with its created ego which we
hold onto,
with our past, to hold onto the identity we created to interact with
others. Some call it ego. Preceding ego will be found the postulate
that created the identity "to be known".
I agree that ego is a component. But then wouldn't an ego keep one in
solipsis when there actually might be a virtual reality but we're not
supposed to know that. And there you have it, the basic key ... to
know. Can we be so sure that we know all there is to know. Of course
not but then this is not an argument for solipsis but a potentially
possible situation. Just think, the MEST Universe could possibly be a
solipsis.
So there we are once again. What is real for you is real for you and
it may not be real to anybody else. oops, how did I do that ??? now
I'm right back into solipsis. I thought I was climbing out of it, out
of a virtual and into something real. Now if I could only find out
which reality I'm lost in .............
Martin
Paul/Level 5 in progress
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