*************
The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
************
Sent*Saturday Saturday, 10 December 2016*
by _*ant.phill...@post8.tele.dk*_
<mailto:ant.phill...@post8.tele.dk>(Antony Phillips)
Replay B64
There is some talk of wins here in this edition, including experiences
of being exterior to one's body as a child. I tried to tidy it up a
little bit as usual by cutting out all sorts of unusable heading
material and here by making bold the sender, the dates and the subjects.
Ant.
Note that this is a resend of a message sent some years ago, and some
data (like addresses)is liable to be inaccurate.
_______________________________________________________
From*: Antony Phillips *<i...@post8.tele.dk>
To: tro...@newciv.org
Subject: TROM *Replay B64*
Dear Trommers,
This got sent to me instead of the list.
**********
TROM: Intro and request, *Steve Kube*
Date:
Tue, *10 Nov 1998 *04:17:56 +0100
From:
"JJ Models" <jjmod...@jjmodels.com>
To:
<i...@post8.tele.dk>
>Dear Trommers. Can any one help with the following request at the end?
>I am not very informed on those things.
>Forwarded:
...snip...
>to get a text version for printing with MSWord, or?, so I can take a
>walk
>and sit and read it over. Any ideas here?
>*******************
Dear Steve,
it's very simple to do.
1) open your html version of the TROM you have with your browser (I.E
Explorer, Netscape or whatever)
2) On menu Choose "File" then "Save as"
3) When Dialog Window will appear then you'll can choose to save it in
Text Format (*.txt)
4) that's all
The browser will save only the text inside the document and not html
language. Just you will lost the text format (no bold, underlined nor
italic).
If you want keep the text format you can try selecting the text in your
browser and then pasting it in MS Word, it would make the conversion
automatically.
Regards
Paolo Malamisura
*******************
Hi,
Ant
Editor, International Viewpoints (= IVy). See Home Page:
http://home8.inet.tele.dk/ivy/
Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l, IVy lists
***************************************************
(Different format: rest of Replay B64)
Date: Sat, *19 Dec 1998 *09:37:23 +0000
From: *Steve Kube *<reals...@perigee.net>
Reply-To: reals...@perigee.net
To: "'TROM-L'" <tro...@newciv.org>
Subject: *wins*
I enjoy reading these discussions. I've not yet begun TROM, wanting to
know more of how it goes for others first. I'm particularly interested
in stable wins others may have from using the TROM processes.
I was in Scn during late seventies/early eighties. I had many great
wins but not many stable ones. Looking back I wonder if anyone had
stable wins of great magnitude. Some of the successes I had in
processing are indescribable, very desireable and probably addictive.
Like a dose of a powerful drug that makes you yearn for the next one.
I've seen people sell their homes, cars and just about everything else
to get the next hit. I've also seen people sign away their souls for
the next billion years or so, for the promise of the next hit.
As far as I could tell all of those wins were subjective. There weren't
many signs from the outside that the person was winning in life
objectively to the degree they thought they were, subjectively.
Business, relationships, family, etc.. How are these things going for
folks who have been doing TROM for a while? Are you winning in life
across the dynamics?
Has anyone attained the "quiet mind state" in a stable fashion yet?
Thanks for your feedback.
steve
From: *"Dustin W. Carr*" <d...@cornell.edu>
To: <reals...@perigee.net>, "'TROM-L'" <tro...@newciv.org>
Subject: *RE: wins*
Date: Tue*, 22 Dec 1998 *09:44:35 -0500
Steve,
I have never been sure as to what people mean by a stable win. A win is a
dynamic thing, a sudden change in viewpoint that allows a person to view
their life or environment in a way that is apparently better than it had
been. The win is not the state that is brought about by this change, it is
the change itself.
A state of existence for a being is defined uniquely and exhaustively by the
possible transitions to other states. The quality of a state can be
described in terms of how much freedom a being has to transform into any
other state.
There is a tendency for people to actually choose to limit their own
freedom. They have a win that transforms their viewpoint. They will then
have the intention to keep their viewpoint from changing because they
believe that the new viewpoint is better than the previous one. Any state
that does not change is undesirable, and thus is the illusion of the
unstable win.
Knowing these things, the very concept of a stable win is the negation of
responsibility.
So you should proceed without the lust for result, and without a vision of
what enlightenment will look like.
If all you want is a gentle improvement in your life existence, TROM won't
really be worth the effort. Just do objective exercises on a regular basis.
I am sure this will be sufficient to put you well ahead of the pack.
If you seek knowledge of divine existence, then first and foremost you
should have the intention to view the world from an ever-expanding
viewpoint. Once you have that intention in place, then I am certain that
TROM can serve you well.
*Dustin*
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Kube [mailto:reals...@perigee.net]
> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 1998 4:37 AM
...snip...
> across the dynamics?
>
> Has anyone attained the "quiet mind state" in a stable fashion yet?
>
> Thanks for your feedback.
>
> steve
From: "*Dustin W. Carr" *<d...@cornell.edu>
To: "Antony Phillips" <i...@post8.tele.dk>
Cc: "Trom-L@Newciv. Org" <tro...@newciv.org>
Subject: RE: *wins*
Date: Wed*, 23 Dec 1998*18:00:41 -0500
Ant,
As I stated, a win is a change in viewpoint that allows the being more
freedom to change viewpoint. There are many ways in which this can occur.
Often times when we have such a change in viewpoint, one that frees up
energy that we were putting into a compulsive game, we will subconsciously
exercise our new freedom, even though we may not understand how. We might,
for instance, assume a viewpoint that flies around without a body. Then, as
we continue on in this world, we choose to put our new found energies into
the games that make up our daily life. This might result in us apparently
loosing our ability to fly around. No big loss, since we will have gained
abilities/awareness in the games we are really interested in.
Flying around is really cool and all, but its practical applications are
overrated.
> Interesting subject. Why process oneself:
> To please the girl friend, boss, family (to make you more "tame")
Accomplishing this means that your interactions with others would promote
your own freedom to interact with others.
> To get rid of something (a stammer for example - there a stable gain
would
> be you never stammered again)
The initial problem is not the stammering, but the inability to not stammer.
A positive change would be to achieve a state where you had the choice to
stammer or not.
> To gain more understanding of life - there stability is an anathema.
Yes, insofar as I understand life.
Merry Christmas,
> Good subject.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hi, and good Christmas,
>
> Ant
> --
> Ant Antony A Phillips
...snip...
>... Viewpoints (= IVy). See Home Page:
> http://home8.inet.tele.dk/ivy/
> Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l, IVy lists
Date: Wed, *23 Dec 1998 *19:29:45 +0000
From: *Steve Kube *<reals...@perigee.net>
Reply-To: reals...@perigee.net
Organization: realsure
To: "Dustin W. Carr" <d...@cornell.edu>
CC: Antony Phillips <i...@post8.tele.dk>,
"Trom-L@Newciv. Org" <tro...@newciv.org>
Subject: *Re: wins*
Dustin,
Perhaps I should change the word win to gain. This can be a positive or a
negative gain. Losing an inability or gaining a new ability.
Learning to ride a bike, play a musical instrument, learning any new
skill is a
beneficial gain. Even if the gain is simply fun with no practical
application,
(who's to say having fun isn't practical?).
No longer having a recurring headache or other somatic is a negative gain.
Maybe having a very peaceful, quiet mind is in this category since
you've given
up the noise.
Interesting thing; I quit smoking cigarettes last month. I was at a pack
a day
for the past twenty five years. No huge problem with withdrawal. Some
symptoms but manageable. I consider quitting a gain, (I probably considered
learning how to smoke way back when a gain too.). I'm mostly putting my
attention on what I want; clear lungs, more stamina, energy, etc. Shifting
viewpoints. Smoking was a compulsive game.
I am very interested in flying around without a body. I liked it when I
did it
as a child and I'm sure I'd like it now. Much like riding a bike. I learned
how way back when and I can still do it. Riding a bike is a stable gain for
me.
Steve
"Dustin W. Carr" wrote:
> Ant,
>
> As I stated, a win is a change in viewpoint that allows the being more
> freedom to change viewpoint. There are many ways in which this can occur.
...snip...
> > http://home8.inet.tele.dk/ivy/
> > Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l, IVy lists
> >
From: "*Dustin W. Car*r" <d...@cornell.edu>
To: "Trom-L@Newciv. Org" <tro...@newciv.org>
Subject: *RE: wins*
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 08:22:42 -0500
Steve,
I understand your concept of gain or win.
To quote Lao Tzu from memory
"In the pursuit of learning, every day something is gained. In the pursuit
of Tao, every day something is lost."
Abilities are learned. If you want an ability, be it foretelling, astral
projection, or riding a bike, then you decide to learn it and you practice
it with intention.
Using meditation or processing to gain abilities is suspect. I know there
are those who believe that they once had tremendous abilities and that all
they need is processing to make those abilities come back. I do not know
that this is true, or beneficial, since all abilities can be created in the
present time. Processing gives you the awareness to see this, and the
vision to create new abilities that you once thought impossible.
You can certainly try to learn a foreign language by reliving a past life in
a foreign country. Your time would probably be much better spent, however,
going to the bookstore and picking up Berlitz.
If bicycling is a stable gain for you, then pursue other gains in the way
you pursued bicycling. Let processing give you the potential for ability.
You then take the responsibility for the rest.
I hope you find TROM worthwhile, but expect a few surprises along the way.
That is why it is fun, and practical.
Dustin
> Dustin,
>
> Perhaps I should change the word win to gain. This can be a positive or a
> negative gain. Losing an inability or gaining a new ability.
...snip...
> > > http://home8.inet.tele.dk/ivy/
> > > Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l, IVy lists
> > >
Date: Thu*, 24 Dec 1998 *18:24:27 +0000
From*: Steve Kube *<reals...@perigee.net>
Reply-To: reals...@perigee.net
Organization: realsure
"Dustin W. Carr" wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I understand your concept of gain or win.
>
> To quote Lao Tzu from memory
>
> "In the pursuit of learning, every day something is gained. In the
pursuit
> of Tao, every day something is lost."
I like that.
> Abilities are learned. If you want an ability, be it foretelling, astral
> projection, or riding a bike, then you decide to learn it and you
practice
> it with intention.
When I was a kid I would lay down and leave my body. I did it a few
times when
I got older. I never called it astral projection. It was nice, I was
relaxed. From what you are telling me I get the idea you've not done this.
> Using meditation or processing to gain abilities is suspect.
Probably. However, gaining abilities as a by-product of processing or
meditation isn't.
> I know there
> are those who believe that they once had tremendous abilities and
that all
> they need is processing to make those abilities come back.
I agree.
> I do not know
> that this is true, or beneficial, since all abilities can be created
in the
> present time.
Sounds nice to be able to create abilities in the present time. Are you
speaking of instantly or through intention, practise, etc.
> Processing gives you the awareness to see this, and the
> vision to create new abilities that you once thought impossible.
My experience with processing has been where abilities I had no idea I could
possess came to me. It was thrilling to say the least. Alas, they were very
unstable and didn't last.
> You can certainly try to learn a foreign language by reliving a past
life in
> a foreign country. Your time would probably be much better spent,
however,
> going to the bookstore and picking up Berlitz.
Embarking on a course of study sounds like the way most people would go
about
it. I think for me I would do best by exposing myself rather thoroughly
in the
language. i.e. put myself in a position where it would be best to know that
language.
> If bicycling is a stable gain for you, then pursue other gains in the way
> you pursued bicycling. Let processing give you the potential for ability.
> You then take the responsibility for the rest.
I used bike riding as an analogy. However, your point is well taken. I had
already considered checking out the Monroe Institute to learn more about
leaving my body and traveling around. I thought of general processing more
along the lines of handling things that come up regularly and or things that
affect me that I'm not very aware of, and or to open me up to pleasant
surprises.
Thanks Dustin
> I hope you find TROM worthwhile, but expect a few surprises along the
way.
> That is why it is fun, and practical.
>
> Dustin
...snip...
> > > > http://home8.inet.tele.dk/ivy/
> > > > Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l, IVy lists
> > > >
> >
Date: Fri, *25 Dec 1998 *22:49:35 -0500
To: reals...@perigee.net
From: "*Dustin W. Carr*" <d...@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: wins
Cc: "Trom-L@Newciv. Org" <tro...@newciv.org>
Steve,
>When I was a kid I would lay down and leave my body. I did it a few
times when
>I got older. I never called it astral projection. It was nice, I was
>relaxed. From what you are telling me I get the idea you've not done this.
I have experienced many, many things. The experiences and sensations I have
found on my path are not of particular significance. Leaving the body would
be among these.
I understand your viewpoint, having been there before. The concept of
leaving the body at will would appear to be the end all proof of
spirituality, and would allow one to have certainty on that. Such is why it
is quite a marketable ability. And it is also fun.
I also know that I wasted alot of time by having this as a primary goal.
Learning to open my heart and mind and to anticipate nothing along this path
has opened me up to many new and uplifting experiences, and has also helped
me to enjoy the games that I am a part of.
>Sounds nice to be able to create abilities in the present time. Are you
>speaking of instantly or through intention, practise, etc.
Any ability that involves physical worlds (traveling outside the body in
this physical world, for example) involves, by definition of a physical
world, games with other beings within that world. You can probably build up
your skills at Tic Tac Toe instantly with just intention, but anything
beyond that will probably take time. (By the definition of time, which is
defined in terms of game-play, and you can not have certainty of your
abilities in the games that you play unless you play them.)
Now you can, of course decide at any time to live in a physical world that
has beings that are all on your side and where you can instantly assume any
ability you postulate. Well, of course that means that you are living in a
world where you are not granting beingness to the other beings, and thus, it
is not really a physical world. You will be very bored there, but you don't
have to take my word for it.
>> Processing gives you the awareness to see this, and the
>> vision to create new abilities that you once thought impossible.
>
>My experience with processing has been where abilities I had no idea I
could
>possess came to me. It was thrilling to say the least. Alas, they were
very
>unstable and didn't last.
You should view these experiences in a positive way. If you have abilities
but are unsure how you got them, then you will eventually lose them due to
your own uncertainty. Beginner's luck is a real thing, but it only exists
for beginners.
That you did experience such things should spur you on and motivate you to
keep reaching.
The best way to put yourself in a position to gain ability, any ability, is
to first quiet the mind. TROM is one of many things that can help you with
that.
Dustin
>> I hope you find TROM worthwhile, but expect a few surprises along
the way.
>> That is why it is fun, and practical.
>>
>> Dustin
...snip...
>> > > > http://home8.inet.tele.dk/ivy/
>> > > > Administrator: trom-l, selfclearing-l, superscio-l, IVy lists
>> > > >
>> >
Dustin W. Carr 607-255-2329
Technical Research Associate d...@cornell.edu
Cornell Nanofabrication Facility
Knight Laboratory
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY 14853
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