Thanks for the response. My mother has been a quilter since I was a tyke, and my wife has recently taken up quilting. I look forward to seeing them on you website.
I agree with most that you say, and am not really "itching-for-an-argument". There are several in this group that feel that one's salvation (i.e., justification) is predicated on their keeping the law, which they cannot do (although some think they can). But, the scripture makes it clear that those who are under the law will be judged by the law. I don't think one can have it both ways. Either one is under the law (thus, rejecting the sacrifice of Christ as sufficient for our redemption), or one is under grace.
Izzy, I do not really beleive that "as many "Christians" seem to believe today, God will have to forgive me no matter what I do/don't do". I don't think too many Christians really believe that, at least not those that I have met. However, since the NT is a transition period between the law and age of grace, I think many are confused by it, and cannot discern the difference between the two. They sre "stuck" between trying to fulfill the Law (the parts they want to, that is), and accepting God's grace.
For example, do you ever eat pork? Or shellfish? Or shrimp or lobster? Are the meat products you and you family eat slaughtered properly? Have you ever had a cheesbufger (mixing of milk and beef). Do you ever quilt on Saturday? If so, then are you sinning? If you break one point of the law, have you not broken it all? These are the types of questions that confuse people, especially new Christians.
So, once one believes, and transitions from death (under the law) to life (under grace), the work of sanctification begins by sorting out what God's commandments are under grace. He clearly asks us to keep His commandments, but does he mean all 613 of them? (You see, the 10 commandments are just a part of the 613. They cannot be separated, and all 613 make up the unit known as "the law".) Maybe the NT means something different when "commandments" is used in the NT. After all, if the commandments did not change, why did we need a new covenant?
By the way, I though of you when you were in Palm Springs recently. I live only 1.5 hours from PS, toward the coast.
Perry
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Re:Re: [TruthTalk] Yes, to claim the law is not a curse is to sin
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:02:41 -0600
Perry,
Obviously I am saved by the grace of God through faith in the shed Blood of
Jesus Christ. Not one thing I do can erase a single sin from my life. "She
who is forgiven much, loves much," and I have been forgiven of much! I never
claimed to be "under the Law" as you and your itching-for-an-argument
friends keep contending.
This does not mean I disregard God's Commandments just because, "God will
have to forgive me no matter what I do/don't do," as so many "Christians"
seem to believe today. I do think one can grieve the Holy Spirit and incur
severe judgment for it. I love His Commandments. I rejoice in obeying Him.
NOT because I am trying to earn my salvation, but because I am grateful that
I am saved, and I LOVE HIM!!!
I think a big misunderstanding is happening here because there is a distinct
difference between JUSTIFICATION (which is given to us automatically when we
receive Christ as Lord), and SANCTIFICATION (which is something we work on,
in cooperation with God's grace, throughout our lives.)
I think Jerry Bridges stated it well in "The Discipline of Grace":
"Justification and sanctification are inseparable. God never gives one
without the other. Both have their source in the infinite love and free
grace of God. Both are accomplished by faith. In justification we rely on
what Christ did FOR us. In sanctification we rely on Christ to work IN us by
His Holy Spirit. I justification, as well as regeneration, God acts in
alone. In sanctification He works in us BUT ELICITS OUR RESPONSE TO
COOPERATE WITH HIM. .... Our part, that is, our response to the HS's work
and our cooperation with Him in His work is the pursuit of holiness."
People who belittle those seeking after holy obedience to God are a reproach
to God's grace. I am sure that is not what those screaming "I am all
grace/no law" seek to do, but that is how it comes across.
By the way, I'm glad you liked the website. However my Webmaster (ie:
husband) is WAY behind on updating it!!! Soon I hope to have some of my
quilts on it.
Izzy
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P. Locke
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re:Re: [TruthTalk] Yes, to claim the law is not a curse is to
sin
Hi Izzy. I was on your family website, and read your statement of faith,
which, of course, is a "reprint" of that of your church. I was particulary
interested in whether that statement mentioned that Christians are under the
law or under grace, i.e., under the old covenant or the new covenant.
In the statement of faith, in the paragraph titled "Salvation", is the
statement, "The salvation of mankind is, then, wholly a work of God's free
grace, not the result, in whole or in part of human works or goodness, and
must be personally appropriated by repentance and faith." This seems to
indicate that the law can't save you...only the grace of God.
Paul seems fairly certain that one is either under the law or under grace.
Which are you?
Perry
>From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Re:Re: [TruthTalk] Yes, to claim the law is not a curse is to
>sin
>Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:23:41 -0600
>
>Not in the Revised Gary Edition. (RGE) In that edition, sleeping with your
>daughters comes under the heading of "walking with God, and not being under
>the Law". :-) Izzy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
>Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 9:16 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Re:Re: [TruthTalk] Yes, to claim the law is not a curse is to
>sin
>
>Charles:
>
>It was Lot, not Noah.
>
>Terry
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles P. Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 6:42 PM
>Subject: Re:Re: [TruthTalk] Yes, to claim the law is not a curse is to sin
>
>
> > Wasn't that Lot that got drunk and slept with his daughters? Didn't Noah
> > just expose his nakedness? I need a scripture reference for "when did
>Noah
> > get drunk and sleep with his offspring " please.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re:Re: [TruthTalk] Yes, to claim the law is not a curse is to
>sin
> > >Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:00:17 GMT
> > >
> > >"..[your] carnal mind is enmity against God.."--Marlin to g
> > >
> > >ok, maybe it is or, perhaps, was; however, i doubt anyones' mind is/was
> > >more or less carnal than Noah's
> > >
> > >and Noah did not gain from following laws
> > >
> > >think about it, e.G.:
> > >
> > >when did Noah get drunk and sleep with his offspring (acc to
>Scripture)?
> > >
> > >it wasn't _before_ the deluge from which God delivered him safely, but
> > >afterwards
> > >
> > >ftr, DavidM says (that Moses wrote that) Noah sinned like that _while_
>he
> > >was codified in 'Noahide'--not when he wasn't
> > >
> > >
> > >gary ottoson * http://aa1ozg.com
> > >
> > >
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>----------
>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
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>how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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