You wrote:" Moses however is known as the mediator of God's Law (Deut 4:13) which is called the Law of Moses."
Sister, where in scripture is Moses referred to as such? And where is the covenant made at Sinai EVER CALLED "THE LAW"? The "law of Moses" and the Book of the law of Moses is the Book of Deuteronomy, NOT the ten commandments as many suppose! Joshua specificly said that Moses wrote about not lifting up iron upon stones used for the altar unto the Lord. (Joshua 8:31) Such was NOT written in the ten commandments, but rather in Deuteronomy 27:5!
You wrote for the second time:"The Abrahamic covenant was also conditioned upon obedience. Covenants are to the death and Moses almost paid the extreme penalty for neglect."
But I had asked you where in Gen.17 (God's covenant with Abraham) are any conditions found? You did not answer this question! Also, how does such a "condition" apply to the instance you have referred to relative to Moses???
You had written that there was a covenant between God the Father and God the Son, to which I'd responded:"I'm sorry sister, but there are no covenants in scripture made between divine persons!"
You answered:"Is this why Jesus is called the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world?" There was no human being involved here"
Judy, the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world" was NOT a promise or covenant made by the Father to the Son or vice versa!
I'd written:"So God began to make covenants (binding promises) to assure sinful human beings that THEY COULD TRUST HIM!. But because there is no distrust between The Father and The Son, there is absolutely no need for any covenants between them! "
To this you responded:"What about the cross? Jesus the man (son) did not want to go there to the point of sweating drops of blood. But he had learned obedience by the things he suffered and so submitted his will to the will of the Father and went to the cross despising the shame. "
All that you said above is true! But it says nothing at all about any distrust between divine persons, nor does it say anything at all about divine persons making covenants with each other! So I don't get your point.
I'd written:"The covenant in Gen.17 was not made BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON! IT was made by God WITH ABRAHAM, and through him with Isaac, Jacob and their seed. See Exodus 2:24; Leviticus 26:42; 2 Kings 13:23; 1 Chronicles 16:16; and Psalms 105:9 "
To which you responded:"Yes the Promise was to Abraham and his seed and Jesus is the Promise. He is the fulfillment of every covenant made with man. "
Sister, I think you are dodging the issue again. That Jesus was the promised seed says nothing relative to your claim that the Abrahamic covenant was a covenant made by the Father WITH the Son! Scripture clearly states (the references I gave above) that God made this covenant WITH ABRAHAM, NOT with Christ!
Judy, I asked you:"Sister, can you be specific about the "conditions" of the covenant which God made with Abraham which were violated by Israel which violations became the reason why they were in Egyptian bondage?? Where does scripture state this idea??"
Your response (quoted in full here with a few comments of mine in [brackets]), fails to show any such conditions at all!:"We know that because of his faith Abraham pleased God and it was counted to him for righteousness - Abraham was called a friend of God or a 'friend of the covenant. '[This term is never found in scripture, sister!] The patriarchs found themselves in Egypt (the house of bondage) because being moved with the sin of envy they sold their brother Joseph to the Ishmeelites who brought him to Egypt. [I don't think scripture ever states this as the reason at all!] God promoted Joseph who was a man of faith with the fear of God in his heart. When tempted by his bosses wife Joseph's response tells where he was at spiritually ie: "how then can I do this great wickedness and sin against God?" So God blessed and promoted Joseph and things were seemingly well with Israel until another king arose over Egypt who knew not Joseph (Acts 7:18). By this time the Israelites had lost the knowledge of God for when Moses tried to defend one who was being mistreated and minister to them "they understood not" (Acts 7:25)
I had written:"Heb.8:10-12 does NOT say that God would put His "statutes and commandments" into their hearts but rather His LAWS."
To this you responded:"It is my understanding that Moses wrote all of them in the Book of the Law or Torah."
Dear Sister, The Torah is the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy) But the Book of the law is ONLY the Book of Deuteronomy! This is demonstrated by the fact that ALL the things which are said to be written by Moses in the Book of the Law are found in the Book of Deuteronomy ALONE!
-the curses of the covenant (Deuteronomy 29:21 and Gal.3:10) are the curses (Deut.28) of the covenant made in the plains of Moab, not the covenant made in the Mount (Deut.29:1)
-the commandments and statutes (Deuteronomy 30:10) are specificly those which Moses commanded them THE DAY HE COMPLETED THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY!(Deuteronomy 27:10; 28:15; 28:45; 30:10,16)
These are distinguished from those which were given almost 40 years previously at Sinai (See Leviticus 26:46 )
-that fathers should not be put to death for the sins of the children and vice versa is found in the Book of the law(II Kings 14:6), but it is only found in Deuteronomy 24:16 !
-that an altar to the Lord should only be made of whole stones upon which no iron tool had been raised was written in the Book of the Law (Joshua 8:31). But that instruction can only be found in Deuteronomy 27:5.
Finally, that which was written at Sinai (the Book which Moses wrote and the tables which God wrote) are NEVER called the "Book of the Law" or "Tables of the Law"! They are rather called the "Book of the Covenant"(Exodus 24:7; 2 Kings 23:2 & 2 Chronicles 34:30) and the "Tables of the covenant" (Deuteronomy 9:9,11,15 and Hebrews 9:4)
I'd written:"Deut. 4:13 defines the specific contents of the covenant that was first made with them children of Israel as THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! This is precisely the first covenant (Heb.8:7-9) which decayed, waxed old and was ready to vanish away when the Book of Hebrews was written nearly two millenia ago!"
To which you responded:" I don't think so Bruce and the reason I don't think so is because of 1 Cor 6:9-11 "Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God...." This is the Law of Christ in the heart to which we are bound and as obedient children we are to walk in holiness. Note Idolatry is the 1st and 2nd commandment of the 10 commandments, adultery is the 7th commandment, thievery is the 8th commandment, reviling is the 9th commandment, and covetousness is the 10th commandment."
Dear Sister, you did not answer what Deut.4:13 clearly states. What you listed were 5 KINDS OF PEOPLE (listed in the new covenant scriptures) who will not inherit the kingdom of God! I Tim. 1:8 lists about 14 KINDS OF PEOPLE for whom the Law was made. But this passage also states that the law was NOT MADE FOR THE RIGHTEOUS! New covenat saints are made "the righteousness of God" in Christ II Cor.5:21 so the law is NOT for us!
I'd written:"The "book of the law" in which the curses were written (Gal.3:10) was the Book of Deuteronomy! See Deuteronomy 29:21; 30:10; 31:26; Joshua 1:8 Such was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and we are NO LONGER UNDER THAT SCHOOLMASTER, BUT ARE RATHER THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS! (Gal.3:21-26)"
And you responded:"Don't forget the condition - We are not under condemnation (the curse) so long as we walk after the Spirit rather than after the flesh (Rom 8:1,2)"
I respond with two things here:(1) You need to misquote your favourite passage of scripture to make it fit your doctrine, sister! Rom.8:1 says,"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." It does NOT say, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, SO LONG AS WE WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT RATHER THAN AFTER THE FLESH." There is a marked difference between the two statements!!!
(2)Once the "schoolmaster" (the old covenant) has brought us to Christ, and after that faith is come, we are NO LONGER UNDER THE SCHOOLMASTER! New covenant saints ARE NO LONGER UNDER
THE SCHOOLMASTER (the old covenant made at Sinai)! See Gal.3:24,25
You had claimed that:"God never did dwell in temples made with hands;"
But when I referred you to Ex.25:8 you did acknowledge that God indeed did dwell in the tabernacle. I also stated that, "AFTER "Solomon's temple was built, God did dwell there!
To this you responded:"Where do you find validation for this Bruce? God gave no pattern for Solomon's temple - He did allow them to use His name there and He said they could pray from there but He never ever wanted a temporal house of cedar(2 Sam 7)"
My response is this: "The evidence that God, in fact inhabitted the tabernacle in the wilderness was the "glory of the Lord" which had covered Mount Sinai as a cloud and also appeared as fire on the top oif the Mount (Ex.24,16,17) also covered and filled the tabernacle and went before israel in their journeys as a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night. In like manner, at the dedication of Solomon's temple, that same glory of the Lord came down UPON and filled the temple and fire came down from heaven! (see1 Kings 8:11; 2 Chronicles 5:14; 7:1,2,3)
I'd written:" The Lord Jesus stated repeatedly concerning the temple in Jerusalem that it was HIS FATHER'S HOUSE! God also dwelt in the bush, where Moses met Him! See Deut.33:16.
You responded with the question:"Where Bruce? I see Matt 2:13 where he calls the temple a 'house of prayer' that had become a den of thieves.(also Lk 19:46); John 2:16 says the same about a house of merchandise.
I was wrong that the Lord Jesus "stated repeatedly" that the temple in Jerusalem was His Father's house. Actually He stated it once: If you read John 2:14-16 you will see that the Jerusalem temple was the place which he called, "My Father's House."
I had written:"I cannot agree with you assumption that only mature body members can minister. This is never stated in scripture!"
You responded with the example of Moses being prepared for 40 years to lead Israel, Paul being trained for 14 years after His conversion before commencing public ministry, and of Paul's instruction to Timothy that novices should not be elders and deacons.
All of your examples have to do with LEADERSHIP not ministry/service per se! I never claimed that new converts were qualified to LEAD, I simply maintained that they ARE ABLE TO MINISTER!
I'd written:" That "the workman is worthy of his hire" is a solid truth of scripture Luke 10:7 But it has nothing whatsoever to do with SHEEP HIRING SHEPHERDS AND PAYING THEIR SALARIES!!! The word translated "hire" in Luke 10:7 is used in 28 verses in the scriptures. In 23 of them it is translated "reward". God is never under any obligation nor is He ever indebted to His servants! God's economy does not operate on charging and paying but rather on giving and receiving. "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matthew 10:8."
To which you responded:"Hmmm! Have I been around perverted IC's for too long? I haven't given this as much thought as you obviously have Bruce."
Dear Sister, anybody who has been around perverted IC's for ANY length of time has been there TOO LONG! You see IC economy is old covenant economy, the economy of DEBT! (You OWE a tithe so you PAY a tithe!) But new covenant economy is the economy of GRACE! ("Whatsoever a man purposeth IN HIS HEART, so let him GIVE, not grudgingly OR OF NECESSITY, for God loveth a CHEERFUL GIVER." II Cor. 9:7)
IC giving, like old covenant giving is in a known place (recepticle) and at a predetermined time, which can be observed by the eyes of man. But new covenant giving is personal, private, unseen and unknown by others! (Matt.6:3,4 and I Cor.16:1,2)
Old covenat tithing always flows ONE DIRECTION, from common people to priests. But new covenant giving flows between priests for all new covenant saints are priests and it also flows from priests to those who are not priests (not saved)! It flows from those who have abundance to those who have need and those roles are often reversed and so the flow runs in any direction at all as it is determined by NEED! (See II Cor.8:13-15)
Judy, I thank you for your good questions and comments. I trust that our continued consideration of various aspects of the key differences between the old covenant made at Sinai and the new covenant made at Calvary will lead us all into a far deeper appreciation of the difference!! Hopefully that will produce in us behaviour that is in keeping with the covenant into which we have been brought and will dispell from our lives behaviour that WAS fitting for old covenant saints, but totally out of place and inappropriate for believers on this side of Calvary!
Your brother in Christ, Bruce
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