DAVEH: IF that were a valid explanation for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage in defense of his accusers claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods" equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his defense.
Again DaveH puts himself in a place of Authority, over even his own Church authorities. Mormon APOSTLE says Ps 82 refers to Judges!
"In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, page 501).
Dave why do you go against your own churches teaching?
Does your Bishop know about these aberrent beliefs?
Are you trying to start your own splinter group?
Is there room for any more groups?
There are so many already claiming to be the ONE TRUE Church splintered off from Joe Smith. They can't ALL be true.
LDS - RLDS - Church of the Firstborn - Church of Christ
I need wisdom to know which is true.
The confusion & strife is so great among the various splinter groups, that I can't come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong!
You and the General authorities understand the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible!
I did pray about it and I found out that all their professors were corrupt, and their creeds were an abomination. So I would be careful about starting a new ONE TRUE CHUCH if I was you!
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You have NO Authority to claim PS 82 teaches godhood Your own Apostle with Authority teaches otherwise!
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
***DAVEH: My latest post has ***............Judy Taylor wrote:
***DAVEH: Elohim is the word used in the latter two passages, which is a plural form of an object of worship. The former (used in Jn 10:34) is theos, which is also an object of worship that refers to elohim used in Ps 82:6.jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture.DAVEH: Agreed. The question is......which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.....when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical
***DAVEH: I agree.
- the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture...
***DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. Do you have a specific reason why it does not qualify as scripture, or are you just assuming such?
and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people.DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your assessment. As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it sealed. jt: Why does your print keep getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it necessary to overemphasize your words - do you them more important or do you have a humvee mentality??
***DAVEH: LOL.......No, Judy. I use very old software that does not plainly distinguish between all the posts on these threads that contain numerous replies. Your replies are very difficult for me to discern, because they get buried with previous hard to separate replies. So, I've tried to make my posts distinctive each time so I can quickly sort out my most recent comments. Then I look just beyond them for your replies. I suspect I sometimes overlook your comments though, because there is not much that differentiates them from the old material.
Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding the Bible it is a closed volume.
***DAVEH: OK......Now I understand where you are coming from.
People can speculate about it and write big thick books that bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they began. God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which noone is able to see him or to know him because he hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible.
DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the Bible. jt: You've got to be kidding.
***DAVEH: No I'm not kidding, Judy. If you do little else, you might take out your copy of the BofM and read the title page. It is only 2 paragraphs long, and probably won't cause you to loose your salvation..... :-)
The Book of Mormon is totally other and this is the kind of thing the prophet warned of when he wrote Isaiah 8:20.
***DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM does speak according to God's word.
Isaiah 29:11 is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.
***DAVEH: Like I said before, I take Isaiah's comments about the sealed book far more literally than you do.
DAVEH: I obviously believe the 'Mormon sheep' are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra Biblical) sources and are seeking to follow the Shepherd. There is much Jesus said and did that is not included in the Bible, Judy (Jn 21:25), and I think it is a bit shortsighted to not allow for extra Biblical material that may be relevant. jt: You may think it shortsighted DaveH but we have been warned about it and everyone needs to follow their own conscience on the matter.
***DAVEH: I'm not here to force you to do anything your conscience opposes. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Since you are relatively new to TT, let me take a moment and explain to you why I am here. I am very curious (due to my LDS biases) what Protestants believe, and why they believe the way they do. And, I also try to answer questions of those who want to know what I believe, and why I believe it. Furthermore, I sometimes feel compelled to correct errors and misunderstandings people may have about LDS theology, as best I can with the knowledge I have. Despite what some may think, I'm not here to try to convert you to Mormonism. (Though it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you did!----VBG)
Jesus has given us a comforter who also leads us into all truth so we are not dependent upon anybody's extra biblical revelation.
***DAVEH: I think you would agree that it is better to have more of God's words than less. Consider how important it is to have the entire Bible, rather than one with fewer than the 66 books now included. IMO, with or without the HS, it is better to have more than less of the Lord's revealed gospel.dh: He is known to us by his parental name, "Father". He has given us the tools to become like him.....the commandments. He has give us a commandment to do so. (Mt 5:48) Furthermore, he has told us that we shall be like him. (1Jn 3:2) jt: Dave you need to be born of the Spirit so that you can understand the scriptures. You have them all mixed up here.
***DAVEH: You didn't explain how I've mixed them up, so I don't know how to respond to your comment with which I respectfully disagree.
God is only Father to those who are in His son; he does not claim devils and rebels.
***DAVEH: I assume you do believe he created the devils....? I believe our Heavenly Father is our creator of our spirits (including Lucifer's), and in that sense we are all brothers who share common roots. That doesn't mean that some of us don't go astray as did the prodigal son. There is also a step of brotherhood beyond our common divine origin, and that is the Christian bond of those who endeavor to follow Christ. In that phase of our 'brotherhood', we put aside our weakness and in humility try to become one with God.
DAVEH: Do you allow that he created them? jt: When he created them they were good.
***DAVEH: Ahhhhhhh......but when he did so, he knew they would become bad, did he not? That leads us full circle back to the question of why God creates something he knows will try to thwart his gospel plan. dh: Then let me answer that our Beloved Brother, Jesus, has provided a way that we can do so......by his grace, specifically by virtue of his resurrection and atoning sacrifice. jt: As I have said already DaveH, the Jesus you speak of is another one, you appear to have mastered the language of the Bible but something isn't right about it.
***DAVEH: I don't quite know why you think I've "". I've certainly quoted from it often in TT. My background (bias) is certainly vastly different than that of Protestantism, so I have a tendency not to be dragged along by Protestant dogma and traditional beliefs rooted in Catholicism. As blinded by LDS theology as you might perceive, I feel likewise about many TTers who choose not to look beyond their traditional religious upbringing.For example......When somebody suggests the thief was saved because Jesus said he was going to paradise, I find it very interesting that not only has it never occurred to Protestants that paradise may not equate with heaven, but so far I have not been able to get any TTers to either explain why my explanation is in error, or offer an alternative based on what the Bible actually says about the details. (BTW......For any TTers who are following this, do any of you know of a book or web site that deals with this apparent discrepancy?)
So......from your perspective I'm sure I sound like somebody possessed. But.....from my perspective, your perception that "something isn't right about it" to me means that the 'something not right' is on your side of the fence, since it all seems right on my side of the fence.
jt: The Bible doesn't support the belief that you are gods (plural) or that any man is god.DAVEH: I quoted Jesus who pointed out the Psalmist suggested just that to his detractors. If you don't believe me, I understand. Why you don't believe our Lord, I don't understand. Do you think I've twisted his words or intent? jt: Yes I think you have done both because he was not speaking in the same context. The same word that is in John and Psalm 82 is in Exodus 7:1.
***DAVEH: Not only does the usage of the word elohim in this passage suggest such, it is in the same sense as elohim is used in many other OT passages, including Gen 1:1.....Do you believe Moses was also God?"In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth."
........so Judy, yes....that is what the Bible indicates. Interestingly, it is also in accordance with LDS theology. (IOW......Yes, as strange as this may seem to you, Judy......I do believe Moses was foreordained as a God.)
***DAVEH: ??? You're losing me on that, Judy. Do you mean to say Jesus was not God while clothed in a physical body on this earth?and on your way back to heaven in a physical body that does not die.DAVEH: ??? Do you mean you do not believe we will gain a resurrected body after our death? I thought the resurrection is a commonly accepted principle amongst most Christians. Perhaps I'm not understanding you on this, Judy.......Do you believe you will exist just as a spirit after you die, and not receive a resurrected body? jt: No, I do believe those who are redeemed in the last resurrection will receive a transformed body but they will always be creatures and never the Creator.Scripture is speaking about gods (judges) who stand in for the one God on this earth - so you see this is twisted.DAVEH: IF that were a valid explanation for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage in defense of his accusers claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods" equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his defense. Does that make sense to you, Judy? jt: Yes it does because Jesus layed aside the glory he had with the father (his divinity) when he took on a body of flesh and during his earthly ministry he became as one of us, a man, walking in a 'full measure' of the Holy Spirit.***DAVEH: I don't want to offend you, Judy.....but it seems as if you are saying you don't have a logical explanation. In that sense, does it seem to be a mystery to you?DAVEH: If you disagree (and I'm pretty sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think my analysis is wrong. To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it all makes logical sense. I don't understand why Protestants find it so hard to accept the basic message of the Bible as I've tried to explain above. jt: Probably because what is logical sense to you makes no spiritual sense to those of us who have been born of the Spirit and understand the scriptures in this light.***DAVEH: Sometimes some of us (LDS) are blinded in that sense. A lot of folks simply take it on faith and don't worry about the details. I guess I'm a little screwy in that sense......I like to know some of the details. (Though not necessarily all of them.....some things simply don't interest me in a theological sense.)DAVEH: I would suggest that many Christians blindly (and I don't mean to use that term in a pejorative sense). Due to dogma adhered to for many centuries, many doctrines and beliefs are simply accepted without considering contrasting possibilities. I think you understand Scripture in light of what is commonly taught in Protestantism. jt: Are Mormons any less blind - following the revelations of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young etc?***DAVEH: That is a good point about the RCC. I have a good friend who grew up in a convent who says much the same thing.But I am not led by men's dogma, I have the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. The RCC have dogma because their ppl are not permitted to interpret scripture for themselves.***DAVEH: I've heard that from other TTers (notably Brother Glenn), and have always been amused by it. Sounds like one of my relatives who thought freedom means no rules to follow. He is now addicted to heroine.OTOH I believe that Jesus has made me free and am not about to go back to any yoke of bondage.***DAVEH: I believe it is a fulness of the restored gospel that seems different to you.Not that we all agree on every detail as you've probably noted from being on TT DAVEH: Yes.....I've noted some major differences. I think your belief (assuming I understood you correctly) that you will not have a physical resurrected body of flesh and bones after you leave mortality is one major difference. jt: This is not a difference on my part - We've been discussing baptism and even that is not a major difference really - it turned into different ways of saying the same thing. We are at different places but the differences are not that great because the Spirit is the same and the Lord will bring it all together before His return. Mormonism OTOH is entirely different. You have another gospel,***DAVEH: I don't recall discussing that with you, other than to say the Jesus in which I proffer my faith atoned for my (our) sins, died on the cross and was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones.a different Jesus,***DAVEH: I do hope you find it not to be a spirit of dissension.....along with a different spirit. Judy--
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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