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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 6:02
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost
sheep of america
Discovery of just ONE senum or ONE shiblon should do it. With many coins
in circulation this should be easy as we have many discovered coins from the
Bible era.
Blaine: I don't
know about coins, but what about cement? The Book of Mormon
mentions cement being used extensively:
Helaman 3:7-11
"The people who went forth became exceedingly
expert in the working of cement."
". . .they did build houses of cement."
". . . all manner of their buildings," and
many of their cities "both of wood and cement."
The temple complex at Teotihuacan, north of present day Mexico
City, uses cement mucho mas! It dates back to the time indicated in the
BoM. After 200 years, it still exceeds present day building code
requirements. Cement as a building material is also found in the Valley
of Mexico, and in the Maya regions of Southern Mexico, Guatemala, and
Honduras. Use of cement is not found in other Indian buildings, only the Maya
seem to have used it. It was basically a lime cement, according to the
writers of my source article, "Concrete Evidence for the book of
Mormon," by Matthew G. Wells, and John C.
Welch. More about this can be found in chapter 61 of
Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John C. Welch.
Thousands of Biblical sites have
been discovered. Just one Nephite city will do.
Blaine You keep saying one site
will do--what about the Nahom site on the Arabian
Peninsula? That has yet to be explained away. (:>)
The alledged discovery of barley proves nothing about the BoM a senum
would there is not other explanation for a senum than the BoM.
Blaine: The Book of Mormon also tells of
the downfall and ultimate destruction of the entire civilization and
legal system of the Nephites, of which the coins and their grain equivalents
were a part. I would be very surprised if much survived at
all. The final destruction took place less than 400 yrs after the
visitation of Jesus Christ to these people.
Isn't the Hohokam site the same one later settled by LDS? How do you know
the barley was not planted in the mid 1800's?
Blaine: That seems to
be a way-out possibility to me. The Hohokam Indians raised many crops
besides Barley, in a huge area of thousands of acres, as indicated in info
below: "Salting" such a huge area with a few barley seeds would be
pretty difficult, and time consuming. Those Mormon settlers would have
to have been far more motivated than any Mormon settlers I ever heard of--I
doubt they even knew barley was a controversial subject. They were more
likely preoccupied with surviving in a hostile environment.
(:>)
"The Hohokam utilised
extensive and ingenious canal systems to irrigate thousands of acres of their
farmland; more than three hundred miles of major canals,
and nearly three times that number of smaller
canals, have been recorded in the lower Salt River valley
alone (Houk 1992: 8). As well as their irrigated
crops of maize, lima and tepary beans, squash, tobacco, cotton, barley and amaranth, the Hohokam gathered
saguaro cactus fruit, prickly pear pads, cholla cactus buds, plantain,
mesquite beans and agave from the wild desert. Maize
kernels recovered from Hohokam dwelling sites have been dated to 300
B.C., or the time of the earliest Hohokam settlements."
More on this subject can be found at:
Blaine: I have a book titled Reexploring
the book of Mormon, edited by John Welch. It has FARMS research in
it.
See you at conference!
Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Blaine,
I
offered the challenge a week or so ago:
"If you cannot find even one
proven fact in the BoM that is not from the
Bible, then my assertion
about it's fictional nature stands."
That is interesting about the
barley, but it hardly consitutes a proof.
There is no linkage between
the barley the BoM other than in name
only.
Perry
>From: "Blaine Borrowman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost
sheep of america
>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:54:40
-0700
>
>Blaine: Sorry, but I got so far behind, I started
deleting posts without
>reading them--it was the only way I could
catch up and get current. (:>)
>I even deleted DavidM's posts,
which I am usually careful to read, so don't
&! gt;take it
personally. In fact, I unsubscribed for a couple of days while I
>was
gone to Richfield to take my son there for a job. But thanks for
>letting me know the challenge is there--who put it
there?
>
>Just to remind you--maybe you didn't read it, or you
dismissed it as being
>unimportant--I have already posted on the
discovery of barley in the
>Americas before Columbus' time. The
December 1983 issue of the Science 83
>reported the discovery in
Phoenix, Arizona by professional archaeologists.
>Prior to its
discovery, barley was thought to be an old world crop only,
>and was
widely used by anti-BoM advocates as proof the BoM was a
fake.
>
>It is of fundamental importance, since barley has long
been associated with
>the law of Moses as a wave offering during the
Passover, which is held
>during Abib, the first month mentioned in
the Bible, which means "the
>greening," referring to the g! reening
of the barley crop in the early
>Spring. This crop was planted in the
fall as a dry crop. It depended on
>Spring moisture to bring it up
early, and was the first of the grain crops
>to show maturity. When
it was used as a wave offering, it signified Jesus
>having barely
attained maturity (age 33) when he was crucified. The same
>with the
Pascal lamb, which was to be a lamb or goat of the FIRST
YEAR.
>
>For Lehi and his group to have left Jerusalem in 600
B.C. without barley
>would have seriously compromised BoM
credibility. The BoM references to
>barley are found
in:
>
>Mosiah 7:22
>"and one half of our corn, and our
BARLEY, and even all our grain of every
>kind."
>
>Mosiah, 9:9
>"And we began to till the
ground with all manner of seeds, with seeds of
>corn, and of wheat,
and of BARLEY, . . .
>
>Alma 11:7
>"A senum of silver was
equal to a senine ! of gold, and either for a measure
>of BARLEY, and
also for a measure for every kind of grain."
>
>Alma
11:15
>"A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a
measure of
>BARLEY."
>
>
>
>----- Original
Message -----
>From: "Charles Perry Locke"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent:
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaines Lost
sheep of america
>
>
> > Blaine,
> >
>
> Just a reminder that there is a challenge on the table for you to
>present
> > one provable, or proven, fact from the BoM that
did not come from the
>Bible.
> > Maybe you have not gotten
to it yet in your catching up on TT posts.
> >
> >
Perry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Blaines Lost sheep of america Date: Tue, 23
>Mar
> >
>2004 18:19:54 -0700
> > >
> > >Blaine: The
following from the Book of Mormon--submitted by Kevin,
>thank
>
> >you Kevin-- sounds well-reasoned and plausible. I find it far
more
> > >believable than the tortuous explanation Kevin gives
trying to convince
>us
> > >Jesus was referring to the
GENTILES when he said "OTHER SHEEP I HAVE
>WHICH
> > >ARE
NOT OF THIS FOLD." Note again Jesus' response when he was accosted
>by
> > >the Gentile woman--a Canaanite--to come heal her
daughter. He said, "I
>am
> > >not sent but to the lost
sheep of the House of Israel." Yet He later
> > >revealed to
Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles by
>the
> > >Apostles, and that the Holy Ghost was to be the
instrument of
> > >conversion--not his voice. NO Gentile ever
heard his voice, no Gentile
>was
> > >ever a witness to
his ministry on earth, except by default as they may
>have
>
> >been present as he ministered to the House of Israel ONLY. This was
>done
> > >to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob, and later to
> > >Moses and other Israelite
prophets.
> > >
> >
>http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/15 3 Nephi 15:14-24 And not at any
>time
> > >hath the Father given me commandment that I
should tell it unto your
> > >brethren at Jerusalem. Neither at
any time hath the Father given me
> > >commandment that I should
tell unto them concerning the other tribes of
>the
> >
>house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of ! the land. This
>much
> > >did the Father command me, that I should tell
unto them: That other
>sheep I
> > >have which are not of
this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall
> > >hear my
voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And now,
> >
>because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my
word;
> > >therefore I was commanded to say no more of the
Father concerning this
> > >thing unto them. But, verily, I say
unto you that the Father hath
>commanded
> > >me, and I
tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them
>because
> > >of their iniquity; therefore it is because
of their iniquity that they
>know
> > >not of you. And
verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath
>the
>
> >Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity
that
>they
> > >! ;know not of them. And verily I say
unto you, that ye are they of whom I
> > >said: Other sheep I
have which are not of this fold; them also I must
> > >bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and
>one
> > >shepherd. And they understood me not, for they
supposed it had been the
> > >Gentiles; for they understood not
that the Gentiles should be converted
> > >through their
preaching. And they understood me not that I said they
>shall
>
> >hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should
not
>at
> > >any time hear my voice-that I should not
manifest myself unto them save
>it
> > >were by the Holy
Ghost. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and
>seen
>
> >me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the
>Father
> > >hath given me.
> > >
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance Tax
Center - File online. File on time.
> >
> >
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>
> > ----------
> > "Let your speech be always with
grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
>know how you ought to answer
every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>http://www.InnGlory.org
>
>
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your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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