Charles Perry Locke wrote:
David, I wear two hats on TT...one is the TT poster hat,
and one is the moderator hat. I do not mix the two.
DAVEH: Really!!! That surprises me, Perry. I would think you are a
moderator first and always......and a poster second. Why would you
remove your moderating hat when you post?
Do you think because I moderate that I should not post?
Do you think that because I moderate I should not make observations
about your posting with which you disagree?
DAVEH: Not at all, Perry. But, with the added mantle of
responsibility that comes with your moderatorship, I would think you
would be a little more circumspect with your posts. Seems to me that a
moderator should practice what he preaches. When you post comments, do
you remove your moderator's hat? Or.....do you only put it on when
somebody infringes the rules of good behavior? If you don't wear it
while you personally post, who is it that moderates your posts? As I
understand it now, you seem to be the only TT moderator.....is that
correct? If you post an ad homimen comment, who is going to bring it
to your attention?
It seems to me that a moderator should live a higher standard, if
anything. As a Christian, do you only wear your Christian hat on
Sunday, and the rest of the week you put on another cap that allows you
to treat those you deal with on a business level in an unChristian
manner? I know there are some Christians who act that way......I've
heard non-Christians mention it many times.
If you think I have violated TT rules, please point it out.
DAVEH: Seems like DavidM posted some thoughts about that.....no need
for me to reiterate them.
It is not I that call you a liar,
DAVEH: You didn't?!?!?!.......
That makes him out to be a liar.
......Do you imagine anybody would not suppose you think such from such
comments?
it is I that point out the inconsistency between your
stated reason for being on TT and your actions.
DAVEH: It seems the inconsistency is as you see it, though there are
others who seem not to see it as you do.
That is what makes you out to be a liar, not me.
DAVEH: Ahhhhhh......it sounds like you are using a technique recently
taught me by a fellow TTer......
It appears to me that you are using the Socratic method
If you were consistent in your stated reasons and your
actions
DAVEH: I explained what brought me to TT. I think I've also made it
clear that I will answer questions as to what I believe. That you seem
to think the two are in conflict amazes me, Perry. Now you have me
very curious.....why do you have a problem with this? What is your
ultimate goal......to persuade me to leave TT?
I could not say that. but, you are not.
No, I do not expect you to refrain from pushing your LDS point of view.
But come on, David, at least be up front about what you do here.
Remember, mars attacks.
DAVEH: And IMO, you should remember that you are the Moderator of TT,
not the Arbiter of Truth.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 01:09:01 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 00:05:30 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
DaveH,
I know you say you are not on TT to espouse your Mormon Theology, but
isn't that what you are doing with Terry below?
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm.........I'm just trying to answer the questions that
are posed to me. Seems like I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I
don't. Guess I can't make everybody happy, Perry. BTW.....You are one
who is asking questions that require me to /espouse Mormon Theology/.
Would you prefer I just stop replying to your questions?
The point is not whether or not you post LDS doctrine or
teachings...you missed it if you think that is my complaint. My
complaint is that in your pat reason for being on TT, you claim it is
not to espouse LDS theology. So, when you DO espouse LDS theology, you
make yourself out to be a liar.
DAVEH: LOL.......Ohhhhh, so I'm just supposed to ask questions and
post nothing about what I believe? Give me a break, Perry! I suspect
you have a problem discerning proselyting from good old theological
discussions. When Mormons preach to convert, it is not in an
adversarial arena. If anybody wants me to assist them in converting to
my religious philosophy, let me know and I'll have some LDS
missionaries pay you a visit. The LAST THING I'D DO IS TRY TO CONVERT
YOU IN THIS TT FORUM!!!
I don't know if you've noticed, Perry.....but typically Mormons
don't preach in an adversarial manner....it just isn't our MO. That's
why I find the street preacher's antics in SLC at Conference time to be
so curious....it is such a contrast to the way we see as preaching the
gospel. Let me tell you a little secret, Perry.....LDS folks typically
feel they will do more good (as in proselyting) by being good examples
of living their religion than anything they can say or formally
preach. In that sense, I suppose you could rightfully accuse me of
influencing others about Mormonism. But, I sure don't see that as a
hidden agenda. Nor do I equate that with explaining to others my
beliefs. And as you surely must know....much of what I believe is so
out of whack with what most TTers accept, for me to espouse those
beliefs on TT in an effort to convert others would be counter
productive. If I want to try to convert TTers....I'd choose a much
different way of doing it.
I would prefer that you change your pat
reason to include "and occasionally espouse LDS theology". That way,
when you teach LDS philosophy you are not contradicting your own stated
purpose for being here.
DAVEH: So you are effectively saying: To explain what I believe
equates to preaching Mormonism
While I am at it, the part of your pat statement, "I am not here to
learn the truth, I am here to learn what Protestants believe" is a
demeaning double entendre. It implies that you believe that Protestant
could not possibly know he truth. I am offended by that statement of
yours, but expect it from someone following an errant faith.
DAVEH: Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn.........Sorry to offend you,
Perry. I really thought you were tougher than that. When you were
made a TT moderator, did it qualify you to only speak the truth? Shall
we (TTers) just automatically accept everything you say as the gospel
truth? Or....is there a chance you might be wrong now and then?
Furthermore.....getting away form you personally, is everything
espoused on TT true? If one accepts everything heard (from non
Mormons) on TT as true, what might you conclude? Would there be
harmony of doctrines and beliefs? I don't think so. Do you disagree?
No, Perry.....I'm not in TT to learn truth. Sorting through the
clutter would just take too much time. For truth, I'd much prefer the
Scriptures. In TT, there seems to be quite a variety of how Scripture
should be interpreted.....even amongst those of you who should be
united in your beliefs.
It appears to me that you are using the
Socratic method
DAVEH: I'm not sure what that means......but it sounds like you are
suggesting it as a negative trait......
The Socratifc method is a very useful teaching tool used to teach by
leading the student into the desired lesson by forming leading
questions that guide the student to the point you want him to learn. It
is powerful because rather than just stating a "fact", it lays a
"logical" line of thought from where the student is, to where the
teacher wants him to be.
DAVEH: Ahhhhhhh.....I understand. Kinda like the way Jesus taught, I
suppose.
But, when that "logic" is founded on a
fallacy, the result is false logic leading to false beliefs.
DAVEH: Of course, IF the logic is accurate, then perhaps the beliefs
are true.......
You are questioning Terry as if to lead him
to the LDS the point of view.
DAVEH: And.....perhaps those LDS points of view are not as fallacious
as you purport.
I have no problem with you doing such, David, since that is what TT is
all about...but I just cringe when you say (type) that you are not hear
to teach LDS theology, then you teach LDS theology.
DAVEH: I cringe whenever you use the wrong word (hear) to describe
me, Perry! :-(
to bring him in line with your LDS beliefs. (BTW, I have no fear for
Terry. I believe him to be well grounded enough not to follow your
Socratic leading.)
Okay, lets focus on my mispelling for a while. Done? Okay, lets
continue. Was there any doubt in your mind what I was trying to say?
DAVEH: Did you not catch the humor? You are starting to sound pretty
dour, Perry! 8-)
To answer your question......Yes, I understood. I was just trying
to give some comic relief to the discussion.
Please forgive me for being a bit
critical. I only did it to poke you in the ribs a bit...... :-)
To be a bit more serious (assuming you've already forgiven me for my
childish behavior), I find the Protestant thinking about salvation to
be unBiblical, as I read passages like Mt 24:13. My thinking on
salvation fits how I understand the Bible, and don't quite see why you
(Protestants in general) don't see it the way I do. Rather than quote
LDS Scripture to support my beliefs (which makes my argument much
easier to present), I've tried to stay within the bounds of the Bible
in most of what I post. (And tonight I did go slightly out of bounds
by mentioning some NDE stories.) I've tried to acknowledge my LDS
biases, but what I've mentioned below I can substantiate from the
Bible.
I admit that you seldom try to espouse LDS theology,
DAVEH: Huh!?!?!?!?!?!?! What's going on here, Perry??? You've gone
way overboard (IMHO) accusing me of being a liar by espousing LDS
theology. Now you are admitting it is a relatively rare occasion that
I do so. Which is it......?
and that you do generally refrain from
directly referenceing LDS works. But, you will you consider that
perhaps it is your LDS bias that makes Christian biblical theology look
wrong to you?
DAVEH: Do you ever really read my posts, Perry? I thought I have gone
overboard to make that abundantly clear whenever I post my beliefs.
Have you never seen me refer to my LDS biases???
Christians do not believe the way you do
because you are in error.
DAVEH: Says who??? The TT Moderator.......correction.......Arbiter of
Truth? Forgive me if I want to believe truth as I see it, and not as
you see it, Perry.
That error comes from the false religion
you are following. David, you were born into that religion,
DAVEH: Once again, you are saying something that is not true. (And
no.....I won't call you a liar.....I just think you want to impose your
erroneous preconceived notions on other TTers.) Why tell me.....why
not instead ask me? I was not born into Mormonism.
and your views were biased before you EVER
consdiered what Christians believe.
DAVEH: My views were first biased by a small community Bible church
prior to my becoming a Mormon. In retrospect, I do not try to hide my
current LDS biases, nor am I ashamed of them.
That makes it tough for you to see the
truth, and much harder for you to see the error in LDS theology.
DAVEH: You suggest such in a rather condescending voice, Perry. Do
you not think it possible your biases might affect you in the same way?
But, you are an adult now, and can lay
youir preconceived notions aside and see the truth. I pray that the
holy Spirit will lead you to the truth.
DAVEH: And to help you feel a bit relieved, Perry.....I think the HS
has done just that.
I'm really not sure what you are complaining about though, Perry. I
do not say that we can save ourselves. If you review my comments, I
clearly have stated that without Jesus' atoning sacrifice and
resurrection, there is nothing we could do of ourselves to save
ourselves. To me, this simplified view of grace makes much more sense
when you look at what the Bible teaches....to learn to become perfect
like our Father in heaven. When we learn to walk in obedience to
accomplish that, then we will have endured to the end and will find
ourselves in heaven.. I think many Christians have it a bit backwards
in their understanding of salvation.......Until we reach heaven, it
seems to me that we have the promise of salvation.
Perry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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