Jonathan, great post. Romans 5.12 is one of those
passages that nay-sayers use to make Adam bigger than Christ. The problem is,
they stop reading too soon!
When we read this passage we dare not see
5.12 as the end-all. Instead we must see it only as what may have
introduced the end were it not for the life-work of the new man, Jesus
Christ:
5.18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to
all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous
act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of
life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made
sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made
righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But
where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign
through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Notice the kinsmen language here. You have the one and
the all; you have the one and the many. But the
Second one is always greater than the first, thus restoring the all and
the many of the first. In this scenario, no one drops out, so to speak, but
everything that is included in the first Adam is taken up and made righteous in
the Second.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:34
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi
Judy,
Please consider the
following quotes:
When Adam sinned, sin
entered the entire human race. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread
to everyone, for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law
was given. And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet
been given, they all died anyway – even though they did not disobey an
explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet
to come! And what a difference between our sin and God’s
generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to
many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought
forgiveness to many through God’s bountiful gift. And the result of
God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s
sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but we have the free gift of
being accepted by God, even though we are guilty of many sins. The sin
of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s
wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and
death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adam’s one sin brought condemnation upon
everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness makes all people right in
God’s sight and gives them life. Because one person disobeyed
God, many people became sinners. But because one other person obeyed
God, many people will be made right in God’s sight. God’s law was given
so that all people cold see how sinful they were. But as people sinned
more and more, God’s wonderful kindness became more abundant. So just as sin ruled over all people and brought
them to death, now God’s wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right
standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our
Lord (Romans 5:12-21)
“The scriptures
contain such vast and varied material that it is not difficult to surround an
idea with biblical quotations. The crucial question is whether the idea
is faithful to the overall biblical portrait of God – the picture that emerges
from the full range of biblical evidence.” (Richard Rice)
My big concern here
is that I think most people give Adam far more credit than Christ. We
are so quick to show how we have all sinned in Adam but rarely will you hear
that we all rose again in Christ. The passage above clearly compares
what Adam did to what Christ did. What Adam did was to ALL, what Christ
did was to ALL. Judy there are passages in the Bible that will prove
your point; there are passages that will prove mine (and Lance’s and Bill’s
and DavidM’s etc.) as well. What we need to do is weigh the full range
of biblical evidence to come to our overall portrait of what happened in the
atonement. For one that seems to despise Calvinism (who you acknowledge
you have never read and only base your conclusions on hearsay and how you
perceive others have taken his teachings) you are the strongest defender of
Limited Atonement on this forum. When we stand before God do we want to
say, “Well I thought that what Adam did was so important I decided to make him
my focus. Surely Adam was the height of what you came to do, no?”
Rather I think we will want to say “Thank you for the generous gift you gave
in Christ Jesus. I do not deserve it. My eyes are fixed on
Him.”
To anticipate what I
believe may be your rejection I am not talking about universalism here.
I am saying that all are included in Christ (surely you cannot deny that the
passage above states just that; the passage fails to make sense if the ‘all’
of Adam does not equal the ‘all’ in Christ). Whether one accepts the
inclusion decides the type of relationship they have in Christ. I can
say to my mother, “Mom, I now deny who you are, and want nothing to do with
you.” I can be cast out of practical relationship. However, am I
still my mother’s son? Am I still a part of her family? Yes, just
not living in the benefits of communion, and possibly getting kicked out the
will! Is there anything I can do to actually remove me fully from my
family? No of course not. “His unchanging plan has always been to
adopt us into his own family bringing us to himself through Jesus
Christ. And this gave Him great pleasure” (Eph 1:5).
Peace and
joy,
Jonathan
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, April
21, 2004 7:03 AM
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TruthTalk]
Calvinism
davidm: I agree with the idea
that God could forgive unconditionally if he wanted to. In other
words, God has the power and ability to forgive unconditionally. The
real question is whether or not He does. I do not think he does.
I believe that Jesus and Scripture reveal to us the nature of God concerning
how he administers forgiveness. We should pay attention to
Scripture. God has a specific way in which he distributes his grace
and righteousness, and few there be that find it.
jt: God could not forgive
unconditionally without denying His own Word and violating His own standard
which is holiness; He keeps a high standard and He expects the same
from us as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and become
conformed to the 'image of Christ'.
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought
against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your
trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in
heaven forgive your trespasses. (Mark 11:25-26 KJV)
jt: Same with married couples, when
one mistreats or Lords it over the other their prayers are
hindered...
davidm: How do you reconcile this verse with your
viewpoint that God's forgiveness is unconditional?
The way I read this passage is that God's
forgiveness is conditional. I welcome your
comments.
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