RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism

[Jonathan Hughes]

Bill,   Thank you for taking the time to explain the greek side of this.  I appreciate it.  There is so much we have to learn from you.   Jonathan   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wm. Taylor Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism   Hi Jonathan, Terry, and all,   In the NT when polloi (many) is used in reference to the saving work of Jesus Christ (see Mrk 10.45; 14.24; Rom 5.19; Heb 9.28), the Semitic inclusive sense is to be understood, i.e. Jesus died for all (cf. 1Tim 2.6; Heb 2.9). Indeed when Paul writes of the one and the many in verse 19, he means the same as when he writes of one for all in v18. This concept of "the one and the many" was an often employed construct in antiquity -- both Hebrew and Greek used it often. It is nearly lost in our day. I can go into greater detail on this if you wish, but we can rest assured: it was not lost on the minds of those 1st c. Roman recipients of Paul's address.   KJV Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. NASB Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.   Notice now in comparing these translations the absence of the definite article (the) in the KJV and its presence in the NASB. Do you sense the subtle shift which takes place in our thinking when the "the" is removed as opposed to when it is used? Well guess what. No variant this time: all of the Greek manuscripts, including the Textus Receptus, have the definite article preceding the "one" and the "many." This is an instance where the KJV translators were unaware of New Testament world literary conventions. Being unaware of this particular construct, they omitted the definite articles for sake of fluidity, which is not uncommon in Greek to English translation. In this case, however, their lack of awareness -- i.e, their mistranslation -- assisted in leading others astray, through a misinterpretation of this verse. In other words, Judy (in speaking of omissions), it's not just those precious babes who need to be careful which translation they trust. We all do.     Bill   ----- Original Message ----- From: Hughes Jonathan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:13 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism   Hi Terry,   The 'many' when referring to Adam is definitely all.  Therefore, the 'many' when referring to Christ must also be all.  Otherwise we are playing with apples and oranges.  I am sure you would disagree if I said that many (but not all, just some) became sinners through Adam.  The passage is quite clear (as is the entire book of Romans) that we all died in Christ.  In the same way I would disagree if you said that man (but not all, just some) were made righteous by the obedience of one.   The New Living Translation is the one I read for my daily reading.  It was the closest one to the computer when I typed it up. Jonathan Hughes -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 2:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism Hey Judy: I checked three versions and that wording was not in any of them.  I see a giant gap between "MANY" and "ALL".  One word change changes the whole message. Thanks for telling me where he got his info, 'Cause I knew it wasn't in my Bibles. Terry  Judy Taylor wrote: Terry This looks like Romans 5:19 from the New Living translation which is a paraphrase. and you probably read from the "majority text" which is why you don't recognize this phrase as being "the words of Paul".   The KJV reads "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"   which to me has a whole other meaning. For one thing "shall be made" is not past tense as in looking back to Calvary.    judyt     From: "Hughes Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Terry,   This is not my sentence.  This is a direct quote from Romans.  This is Paul's sentence. Jonathan Hughes Jonathan Hughes wrote:   Yes, Adam’s one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness makes all people right in God’s sight and gives them life. You are making no sense to me whatsoever. All people are not right in God's sight.  Most of them are very wrong in God's sight.  Only the ones on the narrow path are right with God. The ones on the wide highway are bound for Hell.  Salvation is only available to those willing to deny self and follow Christ. Is it possible that we are misunderstanding your sentence? Terry