Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Divine Justice Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 22:40:19 -0700
Judy Taylor wrote:
*From:* Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
daveh writes: On the other hand.....if only one person unjustly suffers the wrath of God....is that not something you would find interesting? Does God actually unjustly torture those who don't have the opportunity to learn of Jesus? If find it intriguing that many Christians apparently believe such, and wonder why they come to that conclusion when it seems the Bible teaches otherwise.
judyt: Nothing God does is ever "unjust"
DAVEH: Then it must be the perception some have of how he treats his creations that is unjust.
because he is love, justice, righteousness, and holiness personified; we all deserve hell.
DAVEH: For what reason do you think those who have not had a chance to hear the gospel and accept Jesus, will deserve a hell that consists of eternal physical torture?
God's love is what has given us
DAVEH: By us, you are referring to those who hear the gospel, and have a chance to accept Jesus? My questions pertains to those who do not have that chance. Do you think God's love extends to them too, as they burn in hell? If so.....how do you think it (God's love) applies?
a way of escape and if we miss it he will not be the one to blame.
DAVEH: ??? That's what I don't understand about typical Christian beliefs, Judy. If those of us who truly miss it through no fault of our own......who is at fault for our lack of knowledge to accept Jesus?
"For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him." (Hebrews 2:2,3)
DAVEH: Note my emphasis (in red)......It seems to me he is speaking of those who have heard the gospel. Again.....I am asking about how (and why) Christians think God is justified in physically torturing those who have not heard the gospel.
Let's say that noone will be able to get in God's face on the Day of the Lord and accuse Him of anything.
DAVEH: You don't think those who will be facing unjust eternal physical torture will accuse him of being unloving?
daveh: Do you believe those who do not have the chance to accept Jesus while in mortality, will have a chance to accept him after death? To me, the Bible suggests that is the case. judyt: The Bible doesn't suggest anything like this "It is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27)
DAVEH: How does that preclude the preaching of the gospel in the post mortal existence to those who did not have the chance to hear it while in mortality? I see no logical reason why that (hearing the gospel) could not come between the time of death and the judgment. Why would you think otherwise? Are there other passages that suggest such?
daveh: Not only did some early Christians baptize for the dead (which implies they thought the previously dead folks would have a chance to accept Jesus in the post mortal realm)
judyt: Where in all the Bible do you find anyone baptizing anyone else for the dead?
DAVEH: Paul referred to them as evidence of a post mortal existence.
This is extra Biblical
DAVEH: 1Cor 15:29 is hardly extra Biblical.
and it is a Mormon thing. I wouldn't want to be trusting in it on the Day of the Lord.
DAVEH: It is evidence. Why you would want to ignore it surprises me.
daveh: but I've previously mentioned 1Pet 3:18-19 and 1Pet 4:6 as evidence that Jesus preached the gospel to dead folks so that they could be judged as though in the flesh, in order that they can live according to God. What passages do you feel suggest that those who did not have the opportunity to accept Jesus in mortality, would not have the chance after death?
judyt: If what you refer to is preaching to spirits in prison - that was a one time thing
DAVEH: ??? Why do you think it was a one time thing? Is there any Biblical evidence to suggest it is not continuing even today?
between the cross and the throne; these were the righteous dead held in Abraham's bosom who ascended with him. I wouldn't count on a second opportunity.
DAVEH: Again.......the second opportunity argument has entered the discussion. Why do you see this as a second opportunity, if those folks had not had a /first /opportunity? How many people outside Israel who died prior to Jesus had had a /first /opportunity to hear the gospel and accept Jesus? I would suggest there were many, many souls who would welcome a /first /opportunity to accept Jesus in their post mortal prison. Don't you agree? Or.....do you think they should have been consigned to a hell of endless torture?
"Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart because today is the day of salvation"
DAVEH: Nice scripture, Judy. But it doesn't seem to apply to those who never heard His voice unless they have their first opportunity to hear His voice after their death. Do you disagree???
Judyt
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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