Judy Taylor wrote:
Another thing that bothers me is why some
appear to be so hung up on hell and the lake of fire
daveh: I'm hung up on it because I find the popular Christian
perception to be very interesting. To me it is obviously symbolic,
but to most Christians it seems to be a literal lake of fire. Yet (to
me) it seems so illogical.....That a loving God would punitively punish
people who never had the chance to accept/believe Jesus by physically
torturing them forever. Seems pretty harsh.....even for the wrath of
God, does it not! Contrast that to the Lord's story of the prodigal
son.....do you find both teachings to be at odds?
judyt: Why would you call this "obviously"
symbolic Dave.
DAVEH: I thought the symbolic connection between the lake of fire
and the garbage pit near Jerusalem that was on fire was pretty well
accepted by most Christians. From the web site
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Teaching/hell.html..............
+++++++++++
IV The 10 descriptions of Hell are symbolic
not literal
A. Physical garbage dump outside of Jerusalem
B. 4 Different figures of fire: (including gehenna)
1. Fire of Gehenna
2. furnace of fire
3. rain storm of fire and brimstone
4. lake of fire and brimstone
huge furnace with lake of fire inside, raining fire located in valley
of hinnon in Jerusalem?
Or 4 different figures to depict the spiritual counterpart
C. Exile and banishment
D. Eternal night
E. A bottomless pit (Hades)
F. Scourged, while shacked in a prison
G. Worse than drowned in sea with millstone hung around neck:
Mt 18:6
Conclusion: Not A Pretty Place
God appealed to all our five senses to describe hell as a bad
place:
1. Touch: pain from burning fire
2. Taste: dry mouth, extreme thirst, blood from gnashing teeth
3. Smell: rotting garbage-gehenna; rotten eggs-brimstone
4. Sight: smoke-fire; corruption-gehenna or black darkness
5. Sound: moaning, weeping, crying, screaming
+++++++++++
I don't find much symbolism in the parable
DAVEH: Do you understand parable to be a
story that conveys a concept while in itself may not have actually
happened?......
of Lazarus and the rich man who found
himself in Hades. Lazarus has a name which indicates personhood. This
parable is every bit as valid as the prodigal son.
DAVEH:
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=parable&x=0&y=0
Both were taught by Jesus. I don't His
find truth to be at odds at all. God is loving but he is also holy and
perfectly just. Noone will spend an eternity in torment who has not
personally chosen this end.
daveh: From what I've learned previously in TT, anybody who dies
without believing in Jesus is condemned to the lake of fire. (I assume
you agree???) Yet there are literally billions who have lived and died
without even hearing the name of Jesus, let alone hearing the gospel.
So......if they (through no fault of their own) don't believe in Jesus
and end up being eternally tortured in the lake of fire......what
commentary does that speak of a loving God? Or......do you believe
that they will be given the chance to believe in Jesus after their
death? I think virtually all I've chatted with about this deny this
possibility though.
judyt: It is appointed unto men once to
die and after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27); the Church has been
given the great commission (see Matthew 28:19,20). Do you personally
know of someone who has not yet heard of Jesus?
DAVEH: My personal world is immersed in Jesus. However, I can think
of many instances of people(s) who could/would not have heard of him.
How many have heard and rejected the
truth?
DAVEH: The problem with that is it is questionable as to how many
actually heard the truth. If you and I knocked up a non Christians
door in a proselytizing effort, and you first taught him what you know
as the gospel, and then I taught him my perspective of the
gospel.......and then he chose to believe mine---you would assume rejected the truth, while I would assume just
the opposite. So it seems that there are many versions of the truth right here in TT. Imagine a non
Christian viewing the gospel being preached by underwear waving
protesters. Would they run to embrace that truth,
or would they run from it. And if they did find that form of truth to be repulsive, do you think God is
going to chuck them into the lake of fire for not accepting such a
negative presentation of the gospel?
It would
have been this way (hell) for the prodigal son if he had not chosen to
repent in the pigpen and return to his Father's house. Note, the Father
did not chase him into the pig pen and beg him to return; he was
responsible for his own life choices. The
scriptures teach that it is the "wrath of God" we are to be saved from
and when we are saved from this we will not ever have to be concerned
about the lake of fire.
DAVEH: Do you suppose the wrath of God
might possibly refer punishments of mortality, rather than punishments
that extend beyond the grave? I've not done a study of it, but it sure
seems to me that God has shown his wrath to mortals when they happen to
be engaged in efforts to thwart the gospel. One of these days (if I
ever find the time), I'll have to see what relation there is between
the wrath of God and hell. Perhaps you
already know, and can quote some passages that connect the two?
daveh: Without some negative result, what motivation would
Christians have to seek the truth? Jesus told us the truth would set
us free. Free from what, if misconceptive (can't think of the proper
word for that one!) Christians can be saved?
judyt: Free from the lie that damns
the soul and incurs the wrath of God.
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm.....as DavidM suggested, it isn't misperceptions that
damns the soul, but rather sin. But if I
remember correctly, you may disagree with him on that.
We are either slaves of sin or we are
slaves of righteousness, we choose one or the other.
daveh: Which brings back the question: Is one damned from sin or
misconception? (Or.......both?)
judyt: What is sin?
daveh: That which separates us from God.....?
judyt: His word says that all
unrighteousness is sin and 1 John 3:4 teaches us that sin is
transgression of the law.
What is misconception?
daveh: That which separates us from truth......?
judyt: In the parable of the sower, the
sower sows the Word (truth) and the evil one sows his words (the lie)
When truth is conceived in the heart it
brings forth life. When we conceive lies the opposite is true and this
would be a misconception wouldn't it? In Isaiah 59:13 the prophet
speaks of conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
Where does the responsibility lie?
daveh: If we keep the commandments, we shall know the truth....
judyt: What chapter and verse is this?
DAVEH: It is my summation of a couple passages......Jn 8:31-32
There is none so blind as he who will
not see... Stiff necked, stubborn, rebellion, is what damns the soul.
To obey is better than sacrifice.
daveh: Hmmmmmmm......surely you aren't suggesting salvation by
obedience.....! :-)
judyt: I don't believe there is any
formula for salvation Daveh but look at the ones who have made it and
are waiting in Hebrews 11. They are all examples of the obedience that
comes through faith.
judyt
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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