RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The 'Beyond Within' and The Way of Jesus

[Hughes Jonathan]

Lance and I talk 2 to 3 times a day.  I believe I can fairly state what he was thinking when he posted that quote to you.  However, he is a rascally wabbit.   Those who are quick to judge others on this forum include every single member.  Not a day goes by without some judging going on.  The problem is, one states that they are not quick to judge but then does so on a repeated basis.  Now I am a big judger but I do not claim that I do not judge others.  I am a sinner.  I judge others.  I do not however add to my sin by saying that I am not the judger of other people's hearts.  Every post comes through a filter of what I already think of the poster.  Every now and again Christ breaks through my stubborn heart and allows me to see that person for who they really are in Him.  Now lets be honest: that does not happen too often.  It is a daily struggle for me.   All of us have a different perspective on our own posts than what others see.  When we hit the send button we are usually happy with what we have written, our conscience's clean.  Then the first response comes in.  The responder didn't see what we were trying to say and even seems to have picked up on a tone that we were not aware was present in our emails.  We deny that this tone is present.  When the next response also highlights this tone we get even more defensive.  As time goes on we then read that tone into each other's email.  Let me give a quick example.  Sometimes you (Izzy) write some pretty catty emails whose tone to me comes across as quite angry and disrespectful.  When I have pointed this out in the past you have often written back that when you wrote those posts you had a smile on your face.  Now we have a disconnect.  The way you viewed yours posts is far different than the way I the responder viewed them.  I believe that you may not have picked up the frustration and anger in your own posts while I may not have picked up the playfulness in yours.  Another example.  I at times attempt to be funny.  I know, I know, I shouldn't do this but well I think I am funny.  I have posted a few parodies (and have a new one in mind if I get time).  Judy doesn't think I am funny.  She has actually responded to my funny posts in a completely serious manner, missing the intended humor.   She has taken seriously what I meant to be funny.  We do this kind of thing all the time on TT.  Email is a horrible way of communicating.   To sum up, we are all guilty of misreading other people's posts.  We all need to attempt to respect others even when we disagree. Jonathan Hughes   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The 'Beyond Within' and The Way of Jesus Jon my man, please don’t over-idealize Lance. He is one waskally wabbit! J And Judy is no more quick to judgment than some others on TT in my estimation.  You comment about Willard is accurate I think—as I said I really enjoy philosophy when it is truly Christ-centered. Iz   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hughes Jonathan Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The 'Beyond Within' and The Way of Jesus   When Lance posted this he thought that Izzy would jump on it thinking how wonderful it was considering how much she was enjoying one of Willard's other books.  There was no intent to bait her at all.  In actual fact it was an attempt to meet Izzy on an even ground.  Why do you enjoy jumping on Lance so much Judy?  You who always claims she does not want to judge another person's heart.  You are always accusing us of thinking the worst of people before figuring out what is actually going on but you are the first to do it with others.  What a load of garbage.  All talk, no walk.   Other than the words 'Jesus Christ' any description of the gospel is truncated and incomplete.  You must understand that Willard is first and foremost a philosopher, secondly a theologian, and thirdly a spiritual director. Jonathan Hughes  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The 'Beyond Within' and The Way of Jesus You're not playing fair Lance. Hopefully Willard would complete this trucated gospel in another part of his book if he is a "true gospel" man.  I don't believe philosophy and true spirituality mix but that's me.  Lance why do you enjoy this kind of cat and mouse game so much?   On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:58:33 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Izzy says:'This is a good example of what I consider philosophy void of true gospel'   The source for this 'philosophy void of true gospel' is: 'Renovation of the Heart' -Putting on the Character of Christ' by best-selling author of The Divine Conspiracy-Dallas Willard from pg 13-chapter one.       ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 05, 2004 09:05 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:The 'Beyond Within' and The Way of Jesus   Lance,   I’m glad you shared this with us.  This is a good example of what I consider philosophy void of the true gospel.  I love philosophy, but not the void part which skews it into error.  The words below contain much truth.  What they lack is the insight one has on human behavior when viewed through the glasses of sin and it’s effect on the “human spirit”.  We are “formed” in sin.  The gospel is the good news that we can be set free from that bent in and through Christ.  Not just free from the eternal penalty of sin, but free from sin—today, here and now! That is the crucial element that I see is missing from Kruger and other sin-blind philosophers.  They mean well, but their “truth” misses the mark like a rock skipped off the surface of a lake; it bounces across the top w/o penetrating the depths.   For example, let me tell you about a private conversation between my son and myself.  He told me about three recent problems that had occurred at his squadron recently, a couple of which caused career problems for the people involved and one involved deaths.  I can’t go into the specifics because of that.  But it had left him sad and disappointed to see what seemed like disastrous consequences for seemingly minor infractions.  I said, “If you look at each one of those incidences you will see that if the people involved had simply obeyed God none of them would have happened.  One involved excessive consumption of alcohol, one involved taking a casual attitude about sexual “joking around” in the office, and one involved disrespect to authority.”  He thought about it and and he agreed that this was very true.  If each person involved had been walking in an attitude of submission to God’s Word, instead of walking casually in the ways of the world, it would have saved a lot of grief for a lot of people.  If we saw God’s commandments against sin as real daily helps to protect us from the immediate and eternal penalties of sin we could never write philosophies about “the human spirit being formed” etc, without including sin’s effect as the most important aspect.   Do you see my point of view? Or are you going to cling doggedly to the opinion that I am hopelessly in bondage to old fashioned ideas?   Izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 4:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Re:The 'Beyond Within' and The Way of Jesus   'Watch over your hearts with all diligence for from it flow the springs of life.' Proverbs 4:23   We live from our heart.   The part of us that drives and organizes our life is not the physical. This remains true even if we deny it. You have a spirit within you and it has been formed. This is true of everyone.   The human spirit is an inescapable fundamental aspect of every human being; and it takes on whichever character it has from the experiences and the choices that we have lived through or made in our past. That is what it means for it to be 'formed'.   Our life and how we find the world now and in the future is, almost totally, a simple result of what we have become in the depths of our being--in our spirit, will, or heart. From there we see our world and interpret reality. From there we make our choices, break forth into action, try to change our world. We live from our depths--most of which we do not understand.   "Do you mean," some will say, "that the individual and collective disasters that fill the human scene are not imposed upon us from without? That they do not just happen to us?"   Yes. That is what I mean. In today's world, famine, war, and epidemic are almost totally the outcome of human choices, which are expressions of the human spirit. Though various qualifications and explanations are appropriate, that is in general true.   Individual disasters, too, very largely follow upon human choices, our own or those of others. And whether or not they do in a particular case, the situations in which we find ourselves are never as important as our responses to them, which come from our 'spiritual' side. A carefully cultivated heart will, assisted by the Grace of God, foresse, forestall, or transform most of the painful situations before which others stand like helpless children saying "Why?"   Accordingly, the greatest need you and I have--the greatest need of collective humanity--is renovation of our heart. That spiritual place within us from which outlook, choices, and actions come has been formed by a world away from God. Now it must be transformed.    This e-mail and any attachments contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. 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