KD writes before Nathan points the finger and says, "Thou art the man" in Ps 7.
I'm not sure this was written before Nathan did this, but for the sake of discussion, I will assume this to be true. If you have any evidence that it was, please share it.
John wrote:
He not only gives request to the Lord to judge him (David) on the basis of his own righteousness -- a man who is guilty of one of the most involved and degenerate of crimes, but makes it clear that if he were to sin against a friend (think Uriah) it is his request that he be stomped into the ground !!! Stupid.
Stupid? See, here is my problem. You judge David, a man after God's own heart, as arrogant and now stupid. Who made you such a judge? David's psalm is in our Bible as part of God's Holy Word, preserved for all of mankind, and you call the message of this psalm stupid and arrogant!
I realize that David does not think like modern theologians and ministers, but the testimony of God is that he was right in everything except the matter of Uriah. What you call arrogant and stupid I call integrity and boldness. I wish you were more like David in psalm 7. I wish everyone was like David in psalm 7 and psalm 51.
John wrote:
When, in fact , he offers evil to his friend, when, in fact, he digs a pit and falls into it -- what is his request and attitude then? It certainly is not STOMP ME INTO THE GROUND, is it (anyone)? Rather, we find him begging for mercy. The point is there in black and white. David says one thing in Ps 7 and something very different in Ps 51.
I agree with you that the message is different because the circumstances are different.
James 4 teaches us how to repent in the following passage:
James 4:8-10
(8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
(9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
(10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Are we always to be afflicated and mourn and weep? Are we always to be sad? Of course not. We are to turn happiness to sorrow when we sin and need to repent. But let us realize that this is TEMPORARY while we repent of our sin. We are not to be continually in a state of repentance. Even David said in Psalm 51,
Psalms 51:12-13
(12) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
(13) Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
John wrote:
I do not see this [Job] as having any bearing on my comments, nor does it help me to understand the situation with KDavid.
The connection is that a study of Job reveals a man who was very humbled by circumstances. His family and possessions taken, and sickness and boils overtake his body. His friends sit with him in his misery for seven days saying nothing, and then eventually they say words to the effect, "Job, surely you have sinned somewhere and you need to ask God's forgiveness!" This was a huge temptation to Job, to set aside his integrity and say, "Well, I don't know what I did, but surely I must have sinned somewhere for God to treat me this way." Instead, Job's response was more to the effect of, "I have not sinned... your words wound me! Go away and be quiet." God was angry with Job's friends for trying to get him to admit that he was a sinner and that God was a Just and Holy God. God was pleased with Job for maintaining his integrity. David's psalm 7 is a psalm of integrity like Job's intergrity in the face of his temptation to confess sin which he had never done. Please do not insult God's Word by calling it stupid and arrogant.
John wrote:
There is the promise and the reality. When we overcome sin, it is by the power of God. That is the fulfillment (in a sense) of the promise. But we can never say that we are without sin. That is a biblical concept and an absolute reality., as well.
It sounds like you are saying that the promise only operates some of the time. I believe that God's promises are true and a reality all the time, as long as we believe it and walk in it. The time when God's promises fail is when we turn away from them.
No man can say that he is without sin because every man has tasted sin, including Jesus Christ. Jesus was made to be sin for us. This does not mean that Jesus committed sin. It simply means that he experienced the temptation and effects of sin, being made a man like the rest of us. Those of us in Christ can have this same testimony as Jesus Christ. That is what it means to be *IN* Christ.
Please do not confuse the idea of having sin (a noun) with the idea of committing sin. Any person who says he is in Christ and continues to sin is a liar.
1 John 3:5-10
(5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
(6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This passage I quote is not just theoretically true, nor is it just a promise as opposed to reality. When we believe God's Word, it becomes a reality in our lives. We can believe God for the remission of sins and then we experience it in truth.
John wrote:
The remission of sins is found in the sacrifice of Christ.
Amen, and also in the resurrection and life of Christ, as he ever lives to make intercession for us.
John wrote:
... AND, it is a theme of sorts in your writing that we are to be real men, no room for the warm and fuzzies, no place for sniveling and cowering. There are times when I kneel during worship when everyone else is standing, tears come to my eyes on every occasion of worhsip, raised hands and honor are given without remorse.
I don't mean to give the impression that men can never do what you have just described. I spend much more time on my knees crying and being emotional before God than being bold. That is why I tend to focus upon the need for men to be courageous, bold, ambitious, warriors, fighters, putting the enemy to flight, vocal about what is right in our world of sin, etc. However, most of my humble time is private and before God alone. I find that when I represent God in public, he inspires me to be a different kind of person.
John wrote:
A few years ago, I absolutely could not do any of that.
When I raised my boys, there was no home in Fresno
more macho than ours. Wrestlers all -- and very
good wrestlers, in fact. Me with a terrible temper.
Not afraid of confrontation. On rare occasions -- still a problem. And in the evening, when it is all said
and done, not proud of any aspect of that life as means
for separation from my Lord.
Sorry to hear about your past. We definitely have different personalities. I've always been the shy, quiet type and prone to cry.
About 25 years ago, I was sleeping in my dorm room at college. The Lord sent a prophet to my room at 3:00 a.m. I remember opening my eyes and seeing him standing in the doorway dimly lit from the hall lights. For some reason, my roommate and I must have forgotten to lock the door. As I lifted my head slightly and blinked my eyes to try and see what was going on, he said to me, "David, God doesn't want you to be some sniveling coward saying, 'woe is me. Why are these things happening to me.' God wants you to be a man, to be bold, to stand in the grace of God. The Lord does not want you to be retreating but advancing." Then without another word, he turned around, shut the door, and left. I was impressed that he would drive over from some distance away to deliver this message to me and not even stay around and talk about it. At the same time, I thought his word to me made no sense. I'm suppose to be crying to God, aren't I? Well, his words took root in me and woke me up from my spiritual slumber. No, God did not want me to stay in a crying state. He wanted me to be humble before him, but also bold and courageous as his Spirit lifted me up. He wanted me to gain strength from my private weakness before God, and then rise up like David did to slay Goliath, or like Jesus did to cast the money changers out of the temple.
So I guess I have been growing in Christ these last 25 years to become more like you, and you have been growing in Christ to be more like me? You think?
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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