David Miller wrote:
Do you see fulfillment only as the commencement of the covenant?
Bill wrote:
No, I do not.
Exactly when was the covenant fulfilled in your view? Was it fulfilled when God passed through the pieces, when Abraham circumcised himself and his children, when Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar, when?
Bill wrote:
If we refuse Christ, we refuse to participate, and there is no mutual relationship.
If there is no mutual relationship, then how can you continue to say that there is a covenant? If I have no mutual relationship with my wife, then there is no longer a marriage covenant between us. In like manner, the person who refuses to participate has cut themselves off from the covenant, haven't they?
Bill wrote:
As for the one who claims to be holy in the sense that he or she no longer sins, let me say, I view that as purely hypothetical in this life; in other words, I have yet to meet this person.
This is exactly what concerns me. The temptation of the "unilateral covenant view" is to sit back and not force into the kingdom of God. Therefore, if the promises are not ever actually experienced, if the remission of sins is not actually experienced in reality, then such will always be viewed as being hypothetical.
Bill wrote:
... let me go on to state that I do not believe people "have to" sin. The person who has not rejected Christ does not have to go on sinning.
I am glad to see you profess this. Is there anyone who believes in the unilateral covenant that has experienced the remission of his sins, and experiences a holy life afterward? Or is the concept of holiness purely theoretical and hypothetical, never actually experienced?
Bill wrote:
But my point was this: it is not the unilateral covenant that causes or entices or licenses a person to sin.
In a certain way, we agree on this. Certainly the covenant itself, a covenant of God, would not entice a person to sin. I am not talking about the covenant itself, but I am concerned about our CONCEPT of the covenant. How we understand the covenant offered to us might alter our behavior. There are different ways in which we might view the covenant. You view it to be unilateral, which means to me that there is no responsibility upon the part of us, the recipients, to be faithful and true to the covenant. I am concerned that a person who has this view might not press into the kingdom of God. If the kingdom is not given to them as a free gift with nothing that they have to do, they will likely overlook the kingdom of God and think that salvation from the world system is all to expect. Furthermore, this viewpoint would be one additional contributing factor that would weaken their resolve to be true to the covenant they have with God. I'm not saying that the viewpoint itself is the sole reason that they will sin, but rather that it is another straw in the haypile that might tip the scales toward sin. I view the temptation to sin to be very real and multifaceted. The unilateral covenant viewpoint alone would not cause sin, but rather it could be one factor that might contribute to a person not resisting temptation to the point of the shedding of blood.
Bill wrote:
Just as Abraham could not fulfill the covenant, neither can you.
What was happening when Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar? The Lord said to him that it was because he had done this thing, because he had obeyed his voice, that he was able to establish his covenant through him.
Genesis 22:16-18
(16) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
(17) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
(18) And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Bill wrote:
And just as Abraham was not expected to fulfill the covenant, neither are you.
But he was expected to fulfill his part of the covenant. For example:
Genesis 17:10-14
(10) This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
(11) And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
(12) And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
(13) He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
(14) And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Bill wrote:
What Christ did in standing in, so to speak, for Abraham, he has done for you. You would do well to lighten up and listen on this one: if the fulfillment depends on your "everyday" activity, you're a wreck waiting to happen; you just don't know it yet.
I'm not sure what you mean by "everyday activity." My perspective is that anyone who is not circumcised in their heart is cut off from the covenant. That is how I understand God's Word. The unilateral covenant view seems to teach that whether we are circumcised in heart or not, it doesn't matter. It is all up to God.
Bill wrote:
We are included in the covenant by way of our inclusion in Christ. When a person rejects Christ, he excludes himself. And so, I am not espousing universalism.
Maybe this is primarily semantics, but exactly how can a person reject Christ, and yet also be included in the unilateral covenant with Him? If the covenant does not depend on anything he does, then his rejection of Christ should not exclude him from the covenant. You say he excludes himself, but he excludes himself from what? The blessings of the covenant? If only the blessings, then he is still in covenant with God, but how can anyone who rejects Christ be in covenant with Christ? This does not make any logical sense to me. Can you try another way of explaining it? Does it really appear logical to you? What am I overlooking?
Bill wrote:
You seem to view participation as that which gets and keeps you included in the covenant.
No, that is not at all accurate. My participation had nothing to do with my getting the covenant, but it does have something to do with my keeping the covenant. Furthermore, I view my participation also on the part of God. I am responsible to this Holy God, to do what he says, and to cooperate with his working in my life to keep the covenant intact. But even in this, it is not me that is keeping the covenant, but the Spirit of Christ within me.
By way of analogy, the Israelites in the wilderness failed to possess the promised land because they did not believe what God told them they needed to do. They were at first afraid and apprehensive, and thought it impossible to take Jericho. Up to this point, they had been passive participants in God delivering them from Egypt. Now God was requiring them to become active participants. They had to take up the sword and possess the land. When they failed to respond in faith, the promised land was kept from them and given to another generation.
Bill wrote:
I believe we participate because we are included in the covenant;
So do I.
Bill wrote:
furthermore, we are kept there by Christ, not by our participation.
I believe that Christ keeps us there by dynamically working within us and enabling us to be worthy participants of the covenant. This is where understanding the incarnation really kicks into high gear.
Bill wrote:
I hope this is helpful
Yes, very much so. I'm sorry if it is difficult for you, but you are helping me to think about this and sort out my understanding of the covenant we have with God. Thanks for taking the time to patiently instruct me in the spirit of meekness.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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