In the
fourth paragraph, I ask questions.
We
have been around and around on this at TT. I will not be able to speak in such a
way as to satisfy you. All I will say is that an exercise of faith in God is
required. I cannot have airtight certainty. There is more but the ice of
this conversation is thin.
And I
will give you this poem. Maybe I already posted it once before, I forget. Good
night, brother.
Unseen and hoped for
Faith and the fetus in the
ultrasound:
you only see if you
love,
and seeing, love still
more.
Someone who knows shows you the
heart
beating bright under all the curved
lines,
and thenceforth you never forget where it
is,
cherish that luminous spot
until
one day you are given the
child
and look straight into its
eyes.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:38 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] On occupying antithetical positions[note to pouncers: in conjunction with Scripture]?Wait just a minute, we will have to get a ruling from G on this one I am so offendedHow do you recognize that it is the Holy Spirit? Why does the Bible warn us not to believe every spirit. What do we try the spirits against? Our feelings? Our community? The Bible?Did Satan go out of the counterfeit business? Whay are we told Satan's ministers appear as Ministers of RIGHTEOUSNESS and Angels of LIGHT?Men are still Men in my book Though I do admit they are hard to find nowadays
Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:A doctrine change is a [significant] thinking change.Jesus Christ is not a doctrine. He, and his relationship with us, is the constant.You have reminded me of a line in one of Bruce Cockburn's songs: "The trouble with normal is it always gets worse." But I think he's talking about other things.Can I trust God that if I am willing to be taught by him, he can use many means, including and perhaps especially other believers [note to pouncers: in conjunction with Scripture]? Can I trust the Holy Spirit to prompt recognition in me when I encounter something that is a closer approximation to the truth? He has to work with my psychology though! And I may get in the way, and be misled for a time."Men" may not get closer and closer to the truth, but perhaps women do. [Joke! Just alerting you to non-inclusive language! "Men" has stopped meaning "people" for several generations now.]Debbie-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 11:41 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] On occupying antithetical positionsDo you think that allowing one's thinking about something to change over the course of one's lifetime is the same as being "blown around by every wind of doctrine"?? I hope not. When I was a child I thought as a child; now, hopefully not so much...Thinking change? no problem. Doctrine change could be a problem. Seems to me men do not get closer & closer to the Truth
As a corporate entity men have a spiritual gravity problem.They get worse over time not better. Evil men & seducers shall wax worse & worse. Then again I was never in a cultic movement, so I can not fully understand the struggles of those come out of such mental torture.
There does seem to be some BIG WINDS on TT!
Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi Kevin, I'm not talking about conversion below, becoming a new creature, which is definitely the work of the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about believers interacting with believers about the way we understand things. Not that such conversations exclude the work of the Holy Spirit, who inhabits all believers!Do you think that allowing one's thinking about something to change over the course of one's lifetime is the same as being "blown around by every wind of doctrine"?? I hope not. When I was a child I thought as a child; now, hopefully not so much...Debbie-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:19 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] On occupying antithetical positionsOr are they blown around by every wind of doctrine?nice philosophyThe Bible says conversion is of the Holy Ghost The Word of God & Preaching
Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:It's true that it looks like there is little headway. Nobody moves from thesis to antithesis. People do shift, though, and may inch their way even towards antithesis. Part of this movement is unconscious and related to the fact that personal encounters inevitably leave the persons permanently marked. In my observation the phenomenon goes something like this: B tries to persuade A of a very different view. A resists fiercely throughout, using Scripture, logical argument, and the authority of earlier saints, and goes away quite satisfied that she has refuted B. Later, A meets C of like mind, who trashes the position of B in a similar way. A responds, "You don't know what you're talking about. B's view is actually not so bad. Parts of it can be understood in the following way," and begins to defend a version of view B. A is not even surprised that she is doing so. She doesn't yet subscribe to view B, but IF this happens often enough, it's entirely possible she will. As long as B doesn't meet A again, he will believe no headway was made. Meanwhile B's own view has probably moderated somewhat.None of this depends on how nice any of the people have been. It does have to do with whether they've made any sense or not and whether they've had some point of commonality to start with. I'm not sure what all is at play, and the time lines are different in every case. There may be an element of gratification for A that she understands more about B than C does. And there is surely an element of face-saving that slows A's movement. Nobody is completely honest (with herself or with others) even while fully intending to be.Note the point about personal encounters. That's where participants are actually "present" in the encounter, alive to it, engaged. This happens. But lots of people never really relate as persons.As to ventriloquism: there are some people on this listserv under whose name, with a little effort, I could probably write. Others delight and bewilder me by continually stretching the mental shape I have for them. But then, I'm not that literate either.Debbie-----Original Message-----
From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:32 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] On occupying antithetical positionsOf course. When you review the ongoing 'conversations' within the cliques/camps on TT what headway do you see being made? The more literate among us (that'd exclude me) could occupy both sides of any conversation while 'speaking' (writing) under the name of virtually any person.Is this not so?----- Original Message -----From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: February 03, 2005 09:20Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] On occupying antithetical positionsIn a message dated 2/3/2005 5:17:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Kevin says: 'They will not change by skilled reasoning.' Please describe the nature of the content of your own posts, Kevin. Are we witnessing the wisdom of God or, the wisdom of Kevin? If a Mormon I, I'd be quite unmoved. On the whole they (your arguments) are quite supercillious.
I do beleive that a worthy point of discussion would be one which includes an understanding of just why it is that honest people disagree on most any issue.
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