jt: Do you believe the
first Adam was "something other than human" also?
Hi Judy,
I take it you are speaking of
the first Adam in his pre-fallen state. And so, the answer is, No, I do
not believe he was something other than human -- neither do I believe that
Adam needed "saved" prior to the fall. But he did after it. And so did all humanity after the fall.
jt: Yes all humanity
procreated throught he first man Adam were born with a "fallen" human nature
with an inheritance of iniquity through "the fathers". Jesus however,
was not procreated through the first man Adam. He was born of the woman
without a human father and the iniquities of the fathers come down
generationally through the male.
And that is the humanity Christ came to
save: i.e., fallen humanity. To have assumed a nature other than the one he
came to save would be to leave that which was fallen untouched and unredeemed,
still in its sin. That is what the early church meant when it said things like
the unassumed is unsaved and that which was not taken up
in Christ was not saved. In fact, I'll share several quotes with
you from early Christians.
jt: I don't see any
statement or concept like this in all of the New Testament
Bill. He did not assume our human nature, he
paid the price for our sin and took these upon Himself at
Calvary.
Gregory Nazianzen
wrote,
The unassumed is the unhealed; but what
is united to Christ is saved. If only half of Adam fell, then what Christ
assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it
must be united to the whole nature of him who was begotten, and so be saved
as a whole. (Ep.,101; cf. Or., 1.23;
22.13)
And in a similar statement
Gregory Nyssen wrote,
He who came for this cause,
that he might seek and save that which was lost (i.e., what the shepherd in
the parable calls the sheep), both finds that which is lost, and carries
home on his shoulder the whole sheep, not just the fleece, that he might make the man of God complete, united to God in
body and soul. And thus he who was in all points tempted as we are
yet without sin, left no part of our nature which he did not take up into
himself. (Anter. con. Eun., Jaeger, 2. pg.
386)
And in another Basil argued,
If Christ had not come in our
flesh, he could not have slain sin in the flesh
and restored and reunited to God the humanity which fell in Adam and became
alienated from God. (Ep., 261.2)
And years earlier it was
Athanasius who wrote,
It was impossible to pay one
thing as a ransom in exchange for a different thing; on the contrary, he
gave body for body and soul for soul and complete existence for the whole
man. This is the reconciling exchange of Christ.
(Con. Apol., 1.17)
And while you
may not respect these guys, and you may not give what they say any
bearing in your interpretive framework, you should know that when you go against them, you are cutting against your own heritage as a Christian. These are the great
defenders of our Faith, upon whose statements the church
universal was made able to stand in orthodoxy against the heresies of
both the Arians and the Apollinarians.
jt: It's not
upon these men, however great, that the church of the Lord Jesus Christ
stands. It is upon the doctrine of Christ as taught by Jesus Himself and
the apostles in which there is none of this.
And you should know this, too,
Judy, that when you reject this teaching, it is you
who takes the side of the heterodox and not they; and it is they who stand in the stream of classic orthodoxy and not
you. This may not
concern you, I know -- but it should.
jt: Bill I follow
the voice of the Chief Shepherd and "sola scripture" rather than any
record of "classic orthodoxy" IMO these men took upon themselves a
ministry that was never ordained by God. Men don't get anyone into
the Kingdom and they can't put anyone out even someone they believe to
be a heretick. When the disciples brought Jesus' attention
to some who were baptizing and were not of them he said to "let them
alone". Paul took the same stand regarding those who preached
Christ out of a wrong motive. It's all about letting God be God in the
lives of ppl since none of us is empowered to come to Jesus aside from
the Father's drawing anyway and the power to become a son is inactive
aside from continuing in His Word anyway. So this stream of
"classic orthodoxy" is extra Biblical. Something of which the
reformers were aware.
_______________________________________________________________
Judy wrote
> We are not born
into this world "alive to God" Bill, in fact we are dead in trespasses and sin
(see Eph 2)
The language to which you refer
is metaphorical, Judy, and is not to be taken in your dualistic frame of
reference. Again, it was not until Augustine that Christians began to think in
the dichotomous terms of physical life in spiritual death.
jt: The language is
literal Bill and this is why you are unable to see. As for physical life
in spiritual death, this happened in the garden long before Augustine, it
became a reality when Adam disobeyed and ate from the wrong tree - which is
when he died spiritually after which death reigned from Adam to
Moses.
However, Jesus (the second Adam) was never ever "dead in
trespass and sin" other than during that 3hrs on the cross. Yes he
defeated principalities and powers but there are many who "believe" the good
news who are still just as bound by them as they were before they
believed. So why is that?
They probably believe something
similar to what you are teaching, Judy. Hence, they are in
bondage because they believe in something less than the truth (I hope
that's I nice way of putting it). But when one believes the good news of his
salvation and receives the Holy Spirit, that person has received the
Truth, and that truth makes him free, and he does not return to the indwelt
bondages of his prior beliefs, when he lived in the lies of this world.
Bill
jt: You are putting
it delicately Bill but you need to show me by scripture that what I am
saying is something less than the truth. I think the gospel you
promote is hopelessly naive. You are following "orthodoxy" rather
than the Lord and these men set themselves up in the 3rd and 4th Century as
Lords over God's heritage. By this time the gifts Jesus sent for the
Church were lost for all intents and purposes. No discernment, no
genuine healing, and in the RCC divination reigned and still
does.
jt: Yes - I agree with you
- Jesus was born with a human spirit inside his human body like all
humans have. The difference between him and the rest of us is that he
was born with a human spirit that was alive to God (with no breach) whereas
ours was dead. Jesus walked in the fullness of the Holy Spirit - We are born
void of the Spirit (which is something the world can not receive) but we do
receive "a measure" when we are born again or born of the spirit
(and this is when our human spirit passes from death to life). Any
problems?
bt: Yes, big problems. You are making Jesus
something other than human when you insist that
he was equipped with things in his humanity that we are not in ours (i.e., a
spirit that was alive to God whereas ours was dead), and then equip us with something in our humanity that he did not experience in his own person (i.e., a
nature subject to the fall).
jt: Do you believe the
first Adam was "something other than human" also? He had a human
spirit that was alive to God since he fellowshipped with Him in the cool of
the day. What I am saying is that Jesus had the same human nature as
the first Adam (before the fall) - and that he overcame in his personal life
the areas where the first Adam fell (during the temptation in the
wilderness). Yes Jesus did experience our fallenness along with every
sin you can and cannot imagine during those hours of darkness on the cross
and this is the ONLY time he was separated from the Father ever - and
this because of us.
Now humanity is a new creation in
Christ's resurrection, born from above. And we receive the Holy
Spirit if and when we believe the good news of our
salvation.
jt: Not "humanity" per
se. Only those who receive Him receive the POWER TO BECOME a son of
God. Just believing won't do much - because even the devils believe
and tremble - Also remember Jesus' prayer in John 17? He wasn't praying for
the world, only the ones God had given to him and those who would believe
through them.
Jesus was alive to the things of God
and so are we (because he
defeated the powers which kept us in bondage), and if and
when we stop believing the lies of this world and its father and
believe instead in the good news of our
salvation, we are able to respond to our Father in heaven, because he sends
us the Spirit of Christ with which to guide us.
jt: We are not born into
this world "alive to God" Bill, in fact we are dead in trespasses and sin
(see Eph 2) Jesus was never ever "dead in trespasses and sin" other
than during that 3hrs on the cross. Yes he defeated principalities and
powers but there are many who "believe" the good news who are still just as
bound by them as they were before they believed. So why is
that?
