Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

[Bill Taylor]

David, I am not saying that there is no place for reproof, rebuke, and exhortation in Christianity. Do not conclude so quickly that this is what I believe or teach. What I am saying is, without credibility these things do have the influence on people that you imagine they might. If the only contact you have with people (and I am using "you" in a generic sense), is on those occasions that you swing through town to call them "sodomites" at one of their parties or parades, then you do not have the credibility to convict them with the truth. You'll only piss them off. The words you speak to them may be true, but they are only "truth" if they are grounded in a credible relationship. You know this as well as anyone, and you also know that Christianity is not firstly about cognitive assent and the intestinal fortitude to see it to fruition; Christianity is a form of life, which includes intellectual assent, yes, and behavioral righteousness, too -- but at its center, it is relational. One is not a "Christian," who is not engaged in personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And one does not have the will or power to live in righteousness apart from the work of Christ's Spirit in his life. Words removed from the form and function of our Lord in people's lives are void of the power and authority to produce change; in other words, they do not connect and they will not convict. Why do you suppose that yelling obscenities through a bullhorn to people who hate you, is going to be interpreted as "love"? All it does is further ground them in their depravity (And do not be mistaken: they do hear your words as obscene!). You may be equipped to recognize that what you are saying is true, but they are not going to receive it as "truth" until they know that you love them: Truth is only credible, when it is relational.   I have thought a lot about this "tough love" thing that you guys spout (and I am primarily thinking about Judy, Izzy, and Terry here). I agree with you that there is a context for tough love. Sometimes the only way to be loving is to be tough -- I think especially of my relationship with my children. But the only reason that tough love might work in a certain context, is if love itself has already been established in a relationship of mercy and grace, i.e., in a relationship of charity. If I do not love my children 364 days a year, they are not going to receive my "tough love" on the 365th. They will see it for what it is: morally bankrupt. I can't be absent from their lives on most days, except to crash in on some days to smack them around with the tough stuff; for I will only provoke them to anger and hatred, and they will resent what I am trying to accomplish, even if on that occasion it is the best advice for them. And this is because I have no credibility to "love" them at all, let alone with the tough stuff. The same holds true with anyone else. I had better be demonstrating Christian charity firstly and consistently in their lives, or I will not have the credibility to influence them with the righteous reproof, et al of our Lord.   I also want you to know that these "sodomites" know very well that what they are doing is wrong. There is a transcendent value at play here. Paul talks about it in Romans 1. They were created to function in life as heterosexuals. To repress that truth is to rebel against their very own nature and status as human beings, not to mention the image in which they were created. There is no getting away from that transcendence. And so, I do not have to smear the perversion of their lifestyle in their faces; this because I know that at the root of that perversion they are attempting to fill a void in their lives with sin -- and since I know that sin has no status to be fulfilling, I know that they cannot "feel" fulfilled in that lifestyle: they are searching; they are unhappy, and they want something else -- and I know this going in. What I have that they don't, is the answer for their emptiness, their unhappiness, their perversion; it is the only thing on earth that can fill that void in their lives -- and it is Good News. I do not have to convict them, they have already been tried, found guilty, and died in Christ (cf. 2Cor. 5). They need now to know that they may live in the newness of his resurrected life, and they can do this free of sin and guilt. IF I will treat them as I desire to be treated; and if I will love them like I love myself; and if I will receive them like Christ received me -- while I was yet a sinner -- then they will know that there is something real, something true, something transcendently sublime about this new form of life. They will want it because it is credible -- because it speaks meaning into that which they so desperately wanted all along: to be loved.   Bill    PS None of this is to accommodate sinful behavior: one does not have to condone the sin to embrace the sinner, just as Christ did not condone sin when taking us with him to the cross. When Torrance shared the story of Roland and the young homosexual, it was not to indicate to us that it is fine to go on living in sin, now with a hug and acceptance (hence your reference to the Metropolitan Community Church is misguided and inappropriate). No, it was in the context of the "double movement of grace" that he wrote this and it was in view of which that he believes sanctification takes place: It is supremely in Jesus Christ that we see the double meaning of grace. Grace means that God gives himself to us as God, freely and unconditionally, to be worshipped and adored. But grace also means that God comes to us in Jesus Christ as man, to do for us and in us what we cannot do [and think in terms of an historic-present tense here]. He offers a life of perfect obedience and worship and prayer to the Father, that we might be drawn by the Spirit into communion with the Father, "through Jesus Christ our Lord."   . . .   Irenaeus used the metaphor of "the two hands of God" in his criticism of the heretic Marcion. God our Father has two hands -- the Word and the Spirit -- by whom he created and redeemed the world. Marcion had taught that the Creator God of the Old Testament was different from the Redeemer God of the New Testament. No, according to Irenaeus, the God who created this world (and Man) has redeemed this world (with Man) by the same Word and the same Spirit. The one by whom and for whom all things were created has taken our humanity to redeem us -- "to bring many sons to glory." It is by these two hands that God gives himself to us in love to bring us to intimate communion. We can extend that metaphor further. Think of [that] hug. When we hug somebody whom we love there is a double movement. We give ourselves to the beloved, and in the act of putting our arms around the other, we draw that person close to our heart! That is a parable of the double movement of grace, the God-humanward and the human-Godward movement in the priesthood of Christ and the ministry of the Spirit. In Christ, the Word made flesh, and in the Holy Spirit -- his two hands -- God our Father in grace gives himself to us as God. But in Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, and in the Spirit we are led to the Father by the intercessions of Christ and the intercessions of the Spirit. We are lifted up by "the everlasting arms." As in the mediatorial ministry of Christ, the Spirit is the interceding Spirit, through whom Jesus Christ our ascended high priest presents us to the Father. It is in this context that Torrance then goes on to speak of the sanctifying work of the triune God in the worship- and community-life of the Church.           ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers > Bill Taylor wrote: > > I read this and could not get it out of mind; > > it continues to shape my thinking in this area: > > ... <snip> ... > > I have no problem with the love and hug stuff, Bill, but I do have a problem > with the idea of acceptance without rebuke.  I have had similar experiences > with homosexuals as you describe in this quote from Torrance.  However, I > also have had other experiences where it was prudent for me to make it clear > to the homosexual that God does not accept him as he is.  He commands > homosexuals as well as other sinners to repent. > > There are too many homosexuals these days who think that God accepts them > along with their homosexuality.  The Metropolitan Community Church is one > example, and look at how the Episcopals accept homosexual clergy.  This > acceptance doctrine is out of control.  Repentance has become a foreign > concept to this version of the gospel. > > Bill wrote: > > Our job, it seems to me, as Christians is > > not to convict people of their sins; that is > > the work of the Holy Spirit. > > But the Holy Spirit also uses people to do his work.  This is why > "repentance" is part of the gospel message preached by Christ and his > apostles. > > Notice the conviction that Felix experienced when Paul reasoned with him > about righteousness, temperance, and the judgment to come: > > Acts 24:25 > (25) And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, > Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a > convenient season, I will call for thee. > > Bill Taylor wrote: > > Our job is to love them, to accept them, > > to embrace them, as Roland did the young > > man, sinners that they are, that they might > > know the abounding grace and forgiveness > > of their Lord. > > I hope Roland did not limit himself only to hugging the homosexual.  The > Scriptures teach us to do more than love, accept, and embrace sinners.  It > teaches us to reprove, rebuke and exhort with longsuffering and sound > doctrine.  Men of God do these things too. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. >