Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:19:48 -0800

Bill to me it this seems logical. I do not say offend just to be offensive. The gospel in itself is an offensive message, to add more offense is not justified. But the message must be a clear message of Truth. The truth is that some are CONDEMNED Already and stand under a death sentence. There is a way to escape His name is Jesus Christ. 
The messenger should be a messenger & not a distration.
To not deliver the message is a WOE to us
Some hate Jesus Christ & His Gospel message, so they try to assasinate the messenger. See LDS complaints AD Nauseaum
 
The problem I have with your statement is you talk about naturalism anotherwords you leave out the spiritual power of God to touch Hearts & Minds with His Word Through His Spirit
This is exactly what he promised us.

Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
John responded  >  Funny, I remember you and Bill getting it on over the notion that the Message is rational   and fully logical   ---------------   you affirmed, he denied. 
 
The point I am making is that we do not believe what we do not trust. There has to be something trustworthy about the messenger or we are not going to adopt the message as truth. Perhaps as time passes and we have pondered over it, we may come to agreement, but that is only because the message has now had time to establish a credibility in abstraction from the messenger.  There must be something commensurate between the messenger and the message to accept it without question.
 
Now, as soon as I say this I want to declare a caveat. The Holy Spirit can and sometimes does work in spite of the message and the messenger, but just as we should not be content with a compromised message, we should not be content in compromising its presentation. Let the Spirit work, but work with him in every instance that we know how.
 
Bill
 
Kevin, Izzy, and all: I should have changed the color or something; that would have made my contribution easier to decifer. My apologies for the confusion.
 
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Kevin wrote  >  John seems to believe it is the messenger
 
RESPONDING TO

 

John responded  >  Funny, I remember you and Bill getting it on over the notion that the Message is rational   and fully logical   ---------------   you affirmed, he denied.   

The point I am making is that we do not believe what we do not trust. There has to be something trustworthy about the messenger or we are not going to adopt the message as truth.

Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Kevin wrote  >  John seems to believe it is the messenger the messenger the messenger that is important and the active ingredient in salvation." Being Born Again by the messenger "  ( I think thats in 1 Peter details in the B I B L E )
Thats why we all need Seminary.
 
You'd both better learn to read first. I was the one who made the comments to which Izzy responded. And, no, I do not believe the messenger is "the active ingredient in salvation." I believe he or she is one of the active ingredients in getting the good news of their salvation out to people. But that doesn't have the same jingle, does it?
 
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

John seems to believe it is the messenger the messenger the messenger that is important and the active ingredient in salvation." Being Born Again by the messenger "  ( I think thats in 1 Peter details in the B I B L E )
Thats why we all need Seminary.

ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Heb 4:12 “For the word of God is [Acts 7:38] living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and  able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”  John, you seem to ignore the fact that it is God’s Word that does the piercing—not the messenger or the vehicle by which it is delivered.  It is the Word, the Word, the Word thru which the Holy Spirit convicts and saves.  Even in the mouth of a street preacher with a bullhorn, on a license plate, or in graffiti on the subway walls.  Izzy

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 7:16 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

 

DM asked  >  Do you mean, "Truth is only credible, when it is relational."  No, I do not
agree. 

 

John responded  >  Funny, I remember you and Bill getting it on over the notion that the Message is rational   and fully logical   ---------------   you affirmed, he denied. 

 

The point I am making is that we do not believe what we do not trust. There has to be something trustworthy about the messenger or we are not going to adopt the message as truth. Perhaps as time passes and we have pondered over it, we may come to agreement, but that is only because the message has now had time to establish a credibility in abstraction from the messenger.  There must be something commensurate between the messenger and the message to accept it without question.

 

Now, as soon as I say this I what to declare a caveat. The Holy Spirit can and sometime does work in spite of the message and the messenger, but just as we should not be content with a compromised message, we should not be content in compromising its presentation. Let the Spirit work, but work with him in every instance that we know how.

 

Bill

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:20 PM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

 

In a message dated 2/17/2005 6:00:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



John wrote:
>You could throw the bullhorn away and knock
>doors and have the same results, if not better.

Not true.  Certainly it is true.   I would not have made the statement if it were not. I have done both and have pretty much dropped knocking on doors.
Not because I am against it, but because preaching publicly is so much more
effective and produces much more good fruit. Nonsense   --  if you mean with a bullhorn, on a street corner somewhere, yelling at people who do not want to hear you and are not asking the questions for which you have answers.  I was surprised at this at first because the church taught me to knock on doors, but after I started preaching I realized that the Bible didn't teach this. Neither does it teach street preaching the way it is done today  -  the yelling, the harshness, the uninvited intrusion    It teaches us to go
preach.  No wonder preaching is so much more effective. 

John wrote:
>David, you disagree with that last sentence?

Do you mean, "Truth is only credible, when it is relational."  No, I do not
agree.  Funny, I remember you and Bill getting it on over the notion that the Message is rational   and fully logical   ---------------   you affirmed, he denied.      I have had traveling apostles and prophets get the truth across to
mean without having any direct relationship with me.  I read the Scriptures
and see it happen all the time.  This does not mean that relationship is no
good.  It just means that this relationship doctrine is not the secret
mystery upon which truth and everything else must hinge.

John wrote:
>And Bill was speaking of bullhorn evangelism
>-----------   drive-by preaching, if you will.

Was he only talking about drive by preaching, or street preaching in
general?  Drive-by preaching with a truth horn... yes, I have done it, out
of a car window, but not much.  I agree that it is not all that effective.
Now using a truth horn at events does produce results and save people,
because the people become interested and then talk one-on-one with you.

John wrote:
>The events you spoke of  (healings, the request
>for the casting out of demons and the like)   --
>are you speaking of a particular occasion or are
>you suggesting that this sort of response is typical?

It depends on the venue.  It is not an isolated or rare occurence, but the
first time it started happening to me, I was caught off guard somewhat.  I
did not expect it because it happened preaching a night club area.  This was
many years ago and I have learned to expect anything that God wants to do.
It seems like I have seen just about everything out there street preaching
by now, except raising the dead and walking on water, but I'm not holding my
breath about that.  God can do whatever he wants with me when he thinks I'm
ready for it.  I'm all his.
John wrote:
>Is it wrong, on my part, to ask for some kind
>of verification?

Of course not, but don't expect me to spend time proving things to you.  Actually, I don't expect proof from you on this matter, at all.  The
best verification you can have is to get out there and do this work of God
yourself.  And you have decided that I don't do this?  That I have no first hand knowledge of street preaching.  That I have had no dealings with those who claim to be prophets and apostles and are not?   I too am pentecostal.   I have seen it all and I have seen a rather larger number of phonies.  As a pastor, it is a responsibility of mine to insure that deceivers are not followed.   I am sure you share in the same consideration, being a prophet and all.    I have never been so amazed by the power of God than when he
first worked a miracle through me.  I've seen others do it and testify to
it, but I always thought that was them and the thought of me experiencing
this personally never entered my mind.  I will tell you this, that when you
experience it, you know that you did not do any kind of fakery.  I have no idea what you mean by this.   Are you saying that you prayed for someone and they were healed.   More than you have seen this happen.   I believe very much in the miraculous.   But I have never seen a healer who consistently heals.   I know longer believe in "faith healers"   --   rather I believe in God.   People
sometimes will accuse you of seeking glory for yourself or doing some kind
of trick or something, but because you did it, you know that you did not do
any of that. Again, if you are talking about more than praying for someone  ------- great.   If you are talking about something other than that,  well, I don't believe it.

    There is no greater verification than God doing something for

you when you ask him too.  All I can say is do it yourself and let God work.
Ask and you shall receive that your joy might be full.   Thanks for the tip. 


David Miller.

 

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