I've had no 'bleep(ing)' report.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: April 10, 2005 14:16 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: McLaren Reviews > One line I have trouble with in the second review is: "Upon publication of > this book, McLaren is going to find out who...the real Christians in his > midst are." How the hell will he know? > > Debbie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:31 PM > Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: McLaren Reviews > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Hughes Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: April 10, 2005 13:17 > > Subject: McLaren Reviews > > > > > > In "The Last Word and the Word After That," Brian McLaren completes his > > "New Kind of Christian" trilogy. Since McLaren describes his writing as > > "creative non-fiction" readers of this review should be warned--if you > > don't want to know how his narrative ends, stop reading now. I'd hate to > > spoil the plot for you. . . > > > > "The Last Word" arrived today after lunch. I fully intended to return to > > my sabbatical Church history research, but couldn't resist reading the > > back jacket, then skimming the book, then reading the introduction. The > > next thing I knew, the afternoon was over and so was the book. In other > > words, agree with him or not, McLaren can write! His narrative is > > riveting, compelling, and gripping. > > > > I found myself hunting for tissues when reading about Pastor Dan, his > > wife Carol, and the spiritual abuse that they suffered at the hands of > > their church board. I also found myself hunting for scissors at the > > biased portrayal of those who believe in a literal hell (more on this to > > come). And I found myself opening the window to scream at another > > failure to bring any closure to the discussion (I know, that's his point > > and his style, but still . . .). > > > > If you want permission to think deeply about God, life, judgment, grace, > > and doctrine, then "The Last Word" will be a breath of fresh air. If you > > want to be given the research and resources necessary to intelligently > > ponder the doctrine of hell, then "The Last Word" may leave you wanting. > > > > > > McLaren clarifies that his book is not truly about hell, but about what > > kind of God we believe in and what kind of purposes this God has for His > > creation. Still, for the first half of the book, his characters explore > > the doctrine of final judgment. Through their journey, McLaren provides > > a fair introduction to the more commonly held views about the final > > judgment, as well as introducing his own provocative perspective. > > > > McLaren offers the caveat at the beginning of the book that "The Last > > Word" will purposefully under-represents the "traditional" view of hell > > as literal and eternal. Unfortunately, it not only under-represents it, > > it tends to misrepresent it. Three main characters hold to the > > traditional view. Carol represents the, "I don't want to think too > > deeply about it; I just want to love God" characterization. Gil > > epitomizes the, "I'm a cruel fundamentalist, ignorant Bible-thumper" > > depiction. Chip portrays the, "I'm a recovering fundamentalist; please > > be gentle with me while I find my brain and soul" caricature. The reader > > is left to assume that for the past 2000 years of Church history no > > thinking, loving Christian has ever held the "traditional" view of hell. > > > > > > Other characters, presented with much more color--with mind and soul, > > life and personality--offer a composite view of what the final judgment > > might really be about. In the eyes of these favored characters, "hell" > > is not a literal place of eternal torment, but a motivational warning > > about a coming final judgment in which every human being stands stark > > naked before God to give an account of how well or how poorly she or he > > loved God and others and thus contributed or not to fulfilling God's > > shalom kingdom purpose of reconciliation. > > > > The second half of "The Last Word" offers "The Word After That" which > > reads and feels like a separate book altogether. McLaren somewhat > > abruptly shifts from eschatology (the "doctrine" of the last times, > > especially of the final judgment) to ecclesiology (the "doctrine" of the > > Church). His characters speak of and participate in "deep ecclesiology." > > > > > > One of the greatest gifts in the entire book is found here as McLaren > > shares the "five queries" that his "spiritual formation" group ponders > > together. They are well worth repeating: "How is your soul? How have you > > seen God at work in and through your life since we last met? What are > > you struggling with? What are you grateful for? What God-given dream are > > you nurturing?" As one of his characters would say, "That dog will > > hunt!" > > > > This section also includes two questions worth repeating. They are > > questions that arise when we look at salvation not only as individual, > > but corporate: "If you were to live for another fifty years, what kind > > of person would you like to become--and how will you become that kind of > > person? If Jesus doesn't return for ten thousand years or ten million > > years, what kind of world do we want to create?" As another of his > > characters would say, "That'll preach!" > > > > Overall, for a narrative of the story of life on planet Earth, McLaren's > > story-line sometimes rings a little Pollyanna. Do all, or even most, > > church conflicts end so perfectly for the "good guys"? I understand that > > McLaren's final vision for history moves toward reconciliation, but in > > this life? > > > > By this tidy ending, and by what happens to and is said about "the good > > guys" and "the bad guys," an implication seeps out: "Anyone who > > disagrees with the outcomes of these theological probings is a > > witch-hunting, Pharisaical, hyper-fundamentalist, harsh, > > heretic-burning, unloving, unthinking, arrogant loser." That can feel a > > little like reverse spiritual correctness. As with the doctrine of final > > judgment, is it possible that thinking, loving Christians could actually > > disagree with the thought processes of the book in a thinking and loving > > way? > > > > The same overly positive story-telling can be found throughout the > > trilogy in how people respond to Neo. As some "seeker" reviewers have > > noted about the first two books in this series, they would love to > > dialogue with Neo and don't think that they would "cave" so fast, or be > > nearly so enthralled. > > > > Again, there seems to be a message here, a point being made by how > > people fawn over Neo. "This new kind of Christian stuff is incredible. > > It is so intelligent, so sensitive, and so unique. Brilliant. One in a > > billion." That doesn't quite convey the epistemological humility that > > post-modernism relishes. > > > > So what do I REALLY think? Is McLaren a breath of fresh air and a > > post-modern Reformer? Or is he a little leaven and a post-modern > > heretic. Or something in between? Or neither? Or both? In the genre and > > spirit of "The Last Word and the Word After That," I'm not telling. > > Develop your own interpretation. Construct, deconstruct, and reconstruct > > your own view of McLaren and "The Last Word and the Word After That." > > That's certainly what Brian would want you to do. > > > > Reviewer: Dr. Robert W. Kellemen, author of "Soul Physicians" and > > "Spiritual Friends." > > > > Was this review helpful to you? (Report this) > > > > > > > > > > 8 of 12 people found the following review helpful: > > > > A fitting end to a worthy journey., April 6, 2005 > > Reviewer: Benjamin Shobert (Indianapolis, IN United States) - See all my > > reviews > > > > Brian McLaren's newest book, The Last Word and the Word After That, is a > > superb final book in his New Kind of Christian trilogy. My only regret > > is that the series is over; however, I hold out much hope that this > > trilogy will continue in other forms as the trilogy parallels his own > > spiritual development through the use of story. What I love about > > McLaren is his willingness to write about his doubts and the areas where > > he has divested himself of American evangelical thinking. What I get > > frustrated with McLaren about is that he seems to stop short of what the > > logic of his various arguments would require (his treatment of the > > Canaanite genocide in A Generous Orthodoxy is one such situation). But > > here I have to see the beauty I want others to see in me as I wrestle > > with my own doubt: I want those more mature or simply more gracious to > > let me wander, to encourage my seeking, and to love me while I go on my > > journey. I hope so much that he will continue to write about his > > spiritual journey, realizing that he is making more friends than he is > > losing, that he is touching lives the church has done a poor job of > > reaching. > > > > McLaren's first book introduced us to Pastor Dan, who is wrestling with > > questions over pluralism, the argument that the Bible is infallible and > > inerrant, and general ideas about what Jesus meant when he talked about > > the kingdom. Dan meets Neo, a Christian who has been through similar > > questioning and has found a certain peace in these new answers. The > > second book in the series focuses on Dan wrestling with the debate > > between creationism and evolution, and again the underlying ideas about > > the identity of the Bible that are an implicit part of this debate. > > Within the second book, Pastor Dan is put on forced hiatus by his church > > because of some of his changing teaching. The final book brings the > > church crisis to a head but first forces Dan to deal with the most > > painful part of the Christian story - the teachings of Jesus on hell. > > > > For me, this third book may be one of McLaren's best. Christians who > > want to be honest about their struggle with the idea of a loving God > > sending those who have never heard of Jesus to an eternity of torment in > > hell will find this book provocative and helpful. I would caution those > > new to McLaren's writing to not begin with this book, but with the first > > book in this series. To begin with McLaren's teaching on hell builds a > > house of cards where a firmer foundation should be built with his > > teaching on the mechanisms by which the Bible should be interpreted. If > > we start with McLaren's third book we jump right in to his teaching on > > hell without dealing with the searching that led this point or the logic > > that makes his argument sustainable. Christians who see nothing needing > > to be explained within the doctrine of hell will find McLaren's book > > heresy. Upon publication of this book, McLaren is going to find out who > > his real friends are, who the real Christians in his midst are, and who > > he has helped the most with his teaching. > > > > McLaren makes what I believe is probably a conscious choice to focus on > > what Jesus really said and as a result what Jesus really meant when he > > spoke about hell. Because it is a contextual evaluation, many will be > > frustrated that he sees a layer of complexity where the fundamentalist > > position on hell needs no such exploration (left largely unspoken in > > McLaren's book is why some are so comfortable with this idea - something > > our society may have to wrestle with implicitly in the coming years). > > This presentation allows him to avoid the more divisive question of why > > hell is such a central issue for contemporary Christianity. To me, these > > type of decisions folded delicately within the tapestry of his writing, > > suggests that his voice belongs most within the church. I believe that > > many people within the church do not really buy into much of the > > church's teaching on creationism, the environment, politics, the > > end-times, or hell. McLaren's voice echoes through the church graciously > > and eloquently stating that you can be a believer without accepting all > > that is held within the Christian faith. Does McLaren's voice echo as > > much outside the church as it does within? I believe that in large part, > > yes, it does. Many people, even those familiar with the writing of > > atheists like Bertrand Russell, will find that Russell's denial of > > Christianity (which he based in large part based on the fundamentalists' > > presentation of Jesus' teaching on hell) falls apart when McLaren's > > discussion on hell is presented. This is why McLaren needs to be > > encouraged to have a broader voice than he now does; this is why I buy > > his books and share them frequently with family and friends. People need > > to know that you can be a Christian without believing in eternal > > torment. People need to know that you can be a Christian without being > > comfortable in an idea of God that accommodates eternal torment. > > > > > > > > Jonathan Hughes > > Supervisor of Application Support > > Kingsway Financial > > 905-629-7888 x. 2471 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 12:30 PM > > To: Hughes Jonathan > > Subject: Fw: My Question > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Adam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: April 10, 2005 12:20 > > Subject: My Question > > > > > > Lance, > > > > Did you find my question on "God for us" and "God for them" too > > flippant? > > Or some kind of cheap shot at non-universalism? It was not meant to be. > > > > It was simply to point out that a change has taken place. On this side > > of > > human history, there seems no distinction (between for us and for them), > > but > > on the other side, there will be that distinction. So to whom do we > > attribute that change? Us? Or God? > > > > Adam Chen > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This e-mail and any attachments contain confidential and privileged > > information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the > > sender > > immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. > > Any > > dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the > > intended > > recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Thank you for your > > cooperation > > in connection with the above. > > > > Ce courriel ainsi que tous les documents sây rattachant contiennent de l â > > information confidentielle et privilÃgiÃe. 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