Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

Sun, 08 May 2005 15:48:54 -0700

I don't subscribe to double predestination, but I don't think Calvin's followers are idiots or deceived, at least no more than the rest of us! And probably less so. There is a great deal more to Calvinism than this. To return to a previous analogy: our careful theologies are like various cartographic projections of a spherical earth onto a flat sheet of paper--they all entail distortions, especially at the edges. Double predestination is in the corner of the "Calvinist Projection"; at the same time, it's only one short logical step from the idea that our being at the Table is God's grace and choice, not earned by any act or attitude of ours (even faith being a gift). If it is false, it is a good warning of the results of boxing God in logically.
 
On the other hand, this view prevents us from judging people and thinking ourselves superior to those who are not believers. It leaves people and the whole question of their eternal destiny in God's hands where they belong. I also sometimes wonder to what extent our righteous horror at predestination is due to our thinking being permeated by the secular liberal doctrine (liberal in the social philosophical sense, not theological) of the free choice of the individual.
 
More than any other single group of Christians I know, Calvin's contemporary followers have a profound understanding of:
1. covenant
2. the unity of Old and New Testaments in a single redemptive story
3. grace as the ground of our salvation
4. community
5. the ministry of reconciliation and restoration, involving all aspects of personal and public life and all of creation.
 
They are, among the Christians I know (and I know them very well), the most whole-heartedly and consistently engaged in this ministry. They believe God is for the world and they therefore live hopefully in the world. They do not compartmentalize and do not take a narrow, moralistic stance on social issues. They make it their task to really understand the culture we live in and be salt and light in it, working on solutions instead of just talking. They know the value of Christian scholarship and are responsible for a great deal of it. And they were doing this long before it became cool among other evangelicals.
 
By comparison, I find the theology and practice of other evangelicals to be rather dilettantish a lot of the time.
 
 
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

But does anyone ever choose hell - eternal damnation and eternal conscious torture? Some people may feel that that's my destination (along with a lot of Evangelicals - Brian McLaren, Dallas Willard, N.T. Wright) but we all believe we're choosing to follow Christ. Do people make a choice and then, when the curtain pulls back...do they get exactly what they chose, better than what they thought they deserved or worse than what they imagined?
 
Calvin, along with Luther, shaped Western Protestant Christianity. At one time, the City of Geneva invited him to run their city. I can't imagine any American city inviting a fundamentalist Christian to write all their laws and administer their judicial system but that's what Geneva did. But you're right when you said "anyone who follows Calvin is deceived or an idiot or both". Some people who said milder things got burnt at the stake. Calvinism was synonymous with Christianity. It is only very recently that fundamentalist Christians started to question the theology.
 
Love,
 
Caroline 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts on Genesis 1

Caroline Wong wrote:
Okay, you got me there, Terry. That should be Romans 11:25-27. But here is the rest of the passage in KJV (verses 28 to 32)
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
 
Now, what you wrote is valid and solid thinking and a lot of people believe that. But a lot of people considered the rest of the passage and felt that Israel, as a chosen people, have no choice but be saved and this is God's sovereign choice. It is irresistible grace and unconditional election. (Part of Calvin's theology)
 
So on one hand: possible scenario that all Jews are born destined for hell from 33 AD until a day in the future when the full number of Gentiles come in and then Jesus is revealed to them as their Messiah. On another hand, possible scenario that they are saved no matter what because it pleases God to do so. If someone can answer "why would God set it up this way?" for either scenario, then a lot of answers to age old questions (from why the tree of knowledge in the garden to why do we suffer to why are some born handicapped or with cancer) fall into place. Many theologians have attempted to formulate a theodicy that matches what they believe about God and the bible. The entire branch is called theodicy and it's not a simple formulation.
 
Love,
 
Caroline
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I am not a theologian and have no idea what theodicy might mean but there is a third scenario that makes more sense than either of the two above.  All Jews were never destined for Hell at any time.  Those who go there do it by choice, just as you and I would.  The same thing applies to those who are saved.  The old "Choose who you will serve" thing.  God is not willing that any be lost, but just as I would never have forced my wife to be my wife, Christ will not force any to be His bride.  Anyone who follows Calvin is deceived or an idiot or both.  In my opinion, during the tribulation, the vast majority of the Jews living during that time will be killed.  Those who are left will believe.  God always makes certain that a remnant remain.  No one will ever eradicate the Jews, but at the end, I believe they will come closer than they have for a long time.
Terry

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